00:00:00.320 — 00:00:02.720 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Tim Parlatore. Welcome to the show.

00:00:02.960 — 00:00:03.680 · Tim Parlatore
Thank you.

00:00:03.800 — 00:00:31.160 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Um, I want to cover two major topics today. Um, the first one is going to appeal to the science driven individual and basically everybody. And, of course, that is the memo that was issued from the Pentagon recently about screening warfighters versus ozone. And then the second one is about you.

00:00:31.200 — 00:00:31.800 · Tim Parlatore
Okay.

00:00:31.880 — 00:00:34.160 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
And I’ve never heard you talk about yourself.

00:00:34.480 — 00:00:35.240 · Tim Parlatore
I haven’t really.

00:00:35.480 — 00:00:44.560 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Well, we’re going to change that today. Let’s talk about this memo. Dare I say now? Infamous memo from the Pentagon.

00:00:45.920 — 00:01:57.580 · Tim Parlatore
Uh, yeah. So the testosterone memo. Um, so, first of all, you know, I have a reserve duty, as you know, a part time Navy reservist working as a special advisor for the secretary. And this is one of the things that, you know, that he and I do is we come up with ideas of how can we make things better for the force.

And so the testosterone memo really came out of the work by Chris Free on operator syndrome. And we we kind of it was something both of us really cared about, is the idea that the work that we put these people through, and it’s not just operators, it’s across the force. The work that we put people through in a military career depresses their natural testosterone production.

And we’re not treating that the military medical system is not treating it. And so, you know, we had a few anecdotes, obviously, and then, you know, Chris’s research. And so it was something that we kind of sat down and said, okay, what can we do here? How can we make this better?

00:01:57.620 — 00:02:15.620 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Not just not treating guys with low testosterone, which will touch on. That’s a real problem because it increases risk of cardiovascular disease, bone fractures. But it also makes them non deployable somewhat so.

00:02:15.780 — 00:02:37.300 · Tim Parlatore
And that there was a lot of misconceptions around it. And part of the problem is that the way that the military community and the military medical community looked at it is they always viewed testosterone as a performance enhancing drug and kind of put it into the same bucket with anabolic steroids. And so it’s it’s something that’s been,

00:02:38.540 — 00:03:48.259 · Tim Parlatore
to be frank, badly abused in certain communities where guys would be going to the gym and getting illegal steroids. And it was something that I realized a couple of years ago, um, from talking with one of my friends who was dealing with this situation and had been going and doing a bunch of anabolic steroids.

And I kind of realized, you know, we talk about how veterans will self-medicate through alcohol to deal with their PTSD. But the reality is, there’s a lot of guys out there that are self-medicating with steroids to try to be able to keep up with the younger bucks. Yeah, you get whether it’s, you know, veterans, but even guys on active duty where you have, you know, the platoon chiefs and the senior enlisted that are trying to keep up with all the young kids in the platoon and whether they know it or not, they are self-medicating for a depressed testosterone that, you know, 15, 20 years of, of working has done to them.

And so

00:03:49.460 — 00:04:12.310 · Tim Parlatore
the idea that instead of having them go out and do that illegally and unsafely. Why don’t we do that? And this is one of the big misconceptions. Nobody ever looked at this as an opportunity to take young, healthy people and give them an extra shot so that they can become, you know, bodybuilders with a gun.

00:04:12.350 — 00:04:22.230 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
But by the way, you would think that that was going to be happening based on the landscape that people are talking about and what you’re hearing.

00:04:22.270 — 00:04:56.200 · Tim Parlatore
Right. But what we were looking to do is we want to test people first, because we want to start screening for this so that, you know, the military medical community then gets into the game to actually look at these things. And, you know, kind of contemporaneous with all this, you know, the secretary came out with this very important initiative, fit, not fat of saying, you know, we don’t want to have any more fat generals.

We don’t want to have any more out of shape troops. We’re going to bring things back to what the standards used to be.

00:04:57.440 — 00:05:34.960 · Tim Parlatore
And I looked at it and said, you know, that’s great, but if we don’t get the medical community into the game here, we’re going to set our senior people up for failure. Because if you take some of these, you know, senior people that have been in for 20, 30 years and yeah, they’re out of shape, okay. They’re there.

Yes. There’s a lot of fat generals and admirals walking around. But if you just grab those fat generals and admirals, throw them in a row and say, right, guys, here’s the new standard. You have six months to get into standard. You have six months to, you know, be able to get your run times down to lose all this extra weight,

00:05:36.040 — 00:06:20.130 · Tim Parlatore
go eat less and move more. They’re going to fail. And yeah, because their body physiology isn’t set up to do that. And and remember I’m a lawyer. I’m not I’m not a doctor. And so my idea was, why don’t we get real doctors into this? You know, because there are guidelines. You know, there are there is a way of doing this.

Although the military medical community isn’t really into. On the outside, there’s a lot of research. There’s a lot of data. Like it’s not it’s not fringe. It’s not controversial outside the military, but it is inside.

00:06:20.130 — 00:06:24.049 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
And I was looking at some statistics. And

00:06:25.370 — 00:06:55.500 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
the first problem is that the military views testosterone as an anabolic steroid. Yes. However, the medical community does not. And also just looking at the percentages, and this is probably conservative 27%. Roughly 27% of special operations operators Have low testosterone 20. And that’s just again by these guidelines.

Right. Which is already set low.

00:06:55.620 — 00:06:58.500 · Tim Parlatore
I was going to say that’s that’s probably artificially low.

00:06:58.540 — 00:07:15.899 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Is that it’s 27%. And it’s probably way more than that because the requirements of the job of and again, we are not talking about getting ready for a bodybuilding show or sport performance, right. I mean, this is

00:07:17.060 — 00:07:19.180 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
the war fighting community.

00:07:19.220 — 00:07:25.060 · Tim Parlatore
And and that’s something, you know, as a lawyer, having represented a whole bunch of service members,

00:07:26.900 — 00:08:01.149 · Tim Parlatore
even those that are taking anabolic steroids, that was never as offensive to me as those taking cocaine. Okay. If you’re taking a recreational drug, you know, marijuana, cocaine, something like that for your pleasure. That’s very different from the guys that are taking anabolic Steroids because we’re not giving them testosterone, because you want to do better in combat, because you want to maximize your chances of coming home.

And so within these communities, you have

00:08:02.510 — 00:08:32.669 · Tim Parlatore
really you have kind of three groups. You have the people that are not doing it at all. And maybe they have not natural high level still. Maybe they are struggling. You have the second group that’s going out to the, you know, to the bro in the gym and doing it in a very dangerous way. Then the third group is there’s a lot of guys that are going out into town and paying for it out of pocket and not disclosing it to the military.

This is the way it’s been. And so when,

00:08:33.990 — 00:09:06.350 · Tim Parlatore
you know, after the incident where the Bud student, uh, died, um, they started really tightening down and testing everybody. And so they started finding a whole bunch of people that were going out and having a doctor prescribed, doctor supervised out in town off the books. And so the way that Naval Special Warfare and these other communities responded is they said, okay, that’s against the rules.

You have a doctor’s prescription. Therefore we’re not going to kick you out, but you need to go cold turkey. You need to stop that.

00:09:06.390 — 00:09:16.230 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Is that what happened and how long ago? For the listener who doesn’t know that? What happened with the Bud student? What? When was that? That was a two years ago.

00:09:16.270 — 00:10:21.560 · Tim Parlatore
Was it? Yeah, that was about two years ago. I represented the commanding officer there. And that case is so completely and totally inapplicable to what we’re talking about here, because that was not a case of somebody taking a testosterone replacement therapy. That was a case of a, you know, 22 year old kid who was taking vast amounts of antibiotics and performance enhancing drugs so that he could artificially increase his performance so he could pass buds.

And not only was he doing it for himself, but he was also the class drug dealer. That was something that, you know, that we discovered as we went through the case. They, you know, after he passed away, they found massive quantities in his trunk. They went through his phone. They found all the text messages.

He was the class dealer. It’s it is a tragedy that he passed away. But the unavoidable truth is, if he had lived, he’d be in Leavenworth right now. And that’s. That is.

00:10:21.600 — 00:10:23.200 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
And for the listener, what’s Leavenworth?

00:10:23.240 — 00:10:59.490 · Tim Parlatore
That’s the military prison. And so that was a situation where we were taking 18 to 22 year old. We weren’t they were 18 to 22 year old kids were taking unsupervised, performance enhancing drugs to try to artificially get themselves through buds. That’s not something that we want. You know, these younger kids that are going through the initial training, they have to be doing that cleanly because we need to establish their actual performance.

And by the way, if they have low testosterone before they even begin training, you know, what are they going to be like? You know.

00:10:59.530 — 00:11:00.010 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Totally.

00:11:00.010 — 00:11:09.050 · Tim Parlatore
15 years down the road. What we’re focusing on is the people that have been in for several years. That’s why the secretary’s memo.

00:11:09.450 — 00:11:22.170 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Yeah. Can you explain us a little? Because, um, aside from a handful of people, there’s a lot of commentary about what’s in the memo, and I don’t. From what I understand, no one’s really seen that memo.

00:11:22.210 — 00:11:47.900 · Tim Parlatore
Well, there’s two memos. There’s the public facing memo, which is the one that he signed. And that’s the, you know, the short, you know, two page version. Uh, and what that one says is we’re going to start adding it to your annual physical. You’re getting a blood test anyway. The doctors are going to check an extra box that they can at least monitor your testosterone.

And if you test low, then that’s going to open up the option for treatment.

00:11:47.900 — 00:11:52.700 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
And low according to the guidelines. The AOA guidelines or.

00:11:53.300 — 00:12:32.740 · Tim Parlatore
The memo is nonspecific as to that. But I mean, ultimately it’s going to be one of those things of, you know, people in the media think, okay, somebody comes in low one day and we’re just going to give them a bunch of syringes and say, you know, go wild. It’s not that at all. This is just a an initial test that once once that comes up, then you go and you talk to a urologist, you talk to a specialist, you do some more, um, testing.

You take a look and see, do you have any other symptoms and, and then discuss whether you voluntarily want to take this treatment.

00:12:32.740 — 00:12:43.510 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
And what you’re saying is really important. Right. Because You wrote the memo. You have seen both versions of the memo, and.

00:12:43.990 — 00:12:50.430 · Tim Parlatore
The second version is the underlying memo, which is much, much longer. That provides all of the backup reasoning for it.

00:12:51.590 — 00:13:54.880 · Tim Parlatore
You know, one. So an anecdote that kind of illustrates the problem. One of my best friends, uh, he’s he’s a captain in the Navy. And so he’s, you know, the same level as a colonel in the Army. In the Marine Corps. He’s been in for, what, 24 years? And he was going to medical because he was overweight. He was depressed.

He was having all these problems. And what medical was telling him was, okay, you need to go see a therapist for your depression, and you need to eat less and move more for the weigh problem. And I’m sitting here talking to him and I’m saying, dude, tell them to give to test your testosterone because I guarantee it’s low.

You know, with with the lifestyle that he’s lived on board ships for the past, you know, 24 years. And he went in to see the doctor and said, hey, I’d like to, you know, these are my symptoms. I’d like to get a testosterone test. Doctor looks Emma says, do you have erectile dysfunction? No. Okay, then you don’t need the test.

00:13:54.920 — 00:13:55.480 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Wow.

00:13:56.240 — 00:14:25.840 · Tim Parlatore
This is what Navy medicine is doing, okay? If you don’t have erectile dysfunction, you don’t need the test. And she tried to, you know, just send him on his way. But he pushed back and he said, no, I want this test. You’re going to give me this test, you know? And he pushed hard. Finally they relented. They gave him the test.

He comes back for the follow up, walks in the doctor sitting there looking at, oh, sir, I’m so sorry, I have. I had no idea.

00:14:27.160 — 00:14:48.720 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
161 60 we consider low testosterone to be 300. In other countries, it’s 350 for him to have a testosterone of a of 160, arguably a prepubescent boy. I mean, don’t take my word for it, but, uh, similarly, as a grown man.

00:14:48.760 — 00:14:49.400 · Tim Parlatore
Yes.

00:14:49.960 — 00:14:54.000 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
And so to be denied testing. Right.

00:14:54.160 — 00:15:11.120 · Tim Parlatore
And then once he once he had that test, it took them another two months to get him a referral to a urologist who then, you know, still didn’t fully understand this. A urologist still doesn’t fully understand this is trying to talk him out of it. And, you know.

00:15:11.200 — 00:15:16.680 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Do you know why was did he say, um, reasons as to why someone would be.

00:15:16.720 — 00:15:48.090 · Tim Parlatore
If you start it, then it’s a life sentence. You’re going to have to do this the rest of your life. And he calls me up and he says, you know, the doc says, you know, this is a life sentence. I’m going to have to do this the rest of my life. I said, yeah, well, guess what? If you don’t do it, then. Your life sentence is being fat and depressed.

What would you rather have? So he agreed to take it. The prescription they gave him, you know, was even there. It was messed up because they wanted to take a full vial once every two weeks.

00:15:48.130 — 00:15:51.210 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
They wanted him to take 200mg.

00:15:51.210 — 00:15:52.410 · Tim Parlatore
In a single dose every two.

00:15:52.410 — 00:15:53.090 · Speaker 3
Weeks. Okay.

00:15:53.130 — 00:16:05.330 · Tim Parlatore
And so, um, he went on Amazon to get some extra syringes so he could space it out twice a week. Um, and then since that time, he’s lost 60 pounds.

00:16:05.370 — 00:16:05.770 · Speaker 3
Wow.

00:16:05.850 — 00:16:17.930 · Tim Parlatore
And he is doing absolutely, phenomenally. And just last week, he texted me that he came three seconds off of a perfect score on his physical readiness test.

00:16:18.250 — 00:16:19.570 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
That is,

00:16:20.730 — 00:16:21.370 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
um,

00:16:22.530 — 00:16:43.900 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
unfortunate that he also had to wait a lifetime. Many years probably. Plus, if he was 25 years on the ships plus another two months clearly feels terrible. And, um, we know that low testosterone is a risk for other diseases. Yeah. Um.

00:16:44.540 — 00:17:09.579 · Tim Parlatore
But it illustrated to to me what we needed to do, because the first step here is to force military medicine to actually test and to actually screen this. You know, we you essentially have to force them to pay attention to the issue. Don’t just say, oh, no, erectile dysfunction. You know, we can ignore that.

00:17:09.980 — 00:18:46.840 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
And 30 years old is when they will start screening. Um, you know men it’s an interesting population because for women, we go to the doctor and we get regular exams, Gyn exams. There’s a requirement for us to go in. Right. But for men after leaving a pediatrician, there’s no standardized baseline testing for cholesterol or testosterone.

Um, which is a real miss in the medical community outside of the military, but within the military. What I have found and and to be fair, I’ve been treating operators for 15 years. I’m on the CEO of Future Foundation medical Board. Chris. Free is a very good friend. He wrote about operator syndrome. He’s actually been on the podcast.

We will link it here. Chris free. We should have him back on. Um, within military medicine, you know, as you know, she and my husband, they I started taking care of operators because they weren’t getting the care that they needed. Right. Um, they just weren’t. And these guys were suffering and and, yes, testosterone.

But whole platoons were getting GI infections. I was on your friend Sean Ryan’s show talking about parasites, and they are not routinely tested or treated. And we’re supposed to send these guys to war with chronic diarrhea. I mean, you know, like chronic diarrhea and low testosterone.

00:18:46.880 — 00:18:47.480 · Speaker 3
Yeah.

00:18:47.840 — 00:20:01.120 · Tim Parlatore
Well, and I would say that the one the only thing that I disagree with Chris on is his use of the term operator syndrome makes it seem like a smaller issue than it is, because in reality, if you look at the, you know, while the jobs are very different, if you look at the the physiological effects of lack of sleep, um, you know, regular, you know, concussive, uh, blasts, things like that, that’s not just special operations, obviously.

It’s it’s the infantry. It’s, um, you know, the artillery, you know, they certainly. Yeah. But also my friend on board the ship. Because when you’re on the ship, you know. Sleep deprivation is is the norm. As much as they like to say that it’s not. And you’re there out there on the deck when they’re firing that five inch gun, you know, which is kind of like standing next to an artillery piece, kind of like standing, you know, outside of a, a door that’s getting breached.

And so those same, you know, while the jobs are very different, the physiological effects are the same in so many different communities. Um, I have no idea what the high GS of an aviator, you know, would do here, but

00:20:02.160 — 00:20:21.840 · Tim Parlatore
every single one of these jobs involves high stress. It involves, you know, sleep deprivation. It involves all of these risk factors that lead to it. So my only, um, you know, criticism, if you will, of Chris would be.

00:20:21.920 — 00:20:23.170 · Speaker 4
That this is.

00:20:23.530 — 00:20:30.610 · Tim Parlatore
Much wider, and I think it’s very visible in the special operations community. Um, because if you see,

00:20:31.730 — 00:20:36.130 · Tim Parlatore
you know, if you see a fat seal that really sticks out. If you see if you see.

00:20:36.170 — 00:20:36.370 · Speaker 3
Fat.

00:20:36.410 — 00:20:37.370 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
They don’t have fat seals.

00:20:37.410 — 00:20:47.810 · Tim Parlatore
Right? If you see a fat officer on the ship, you’re like, oh, that’s because he’s eating too many, you know, coffee and donuts. But the reality is it’s the same, you know, type of thing.

00:20:47.850 — 00:21:10.570 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
And there’s been quite a bit of pushback. And I want to highlight, um, just a few. Sure. Uh, a few things that I am seeing as a physician. Um, number one, which we touched on, the military abuse. Testosterone is an anabolic. I don’t know how we’re going to solve for that.

00:21:10.610 — 00:22:02.100 · Tim Parlatore
Well, and here’s one of the things that that’s in the underlying memo, and we need to put out more, is that one of the things that I discussed with the Secretary from the very beginning is if you do this, you institute the testing and the option to treat. You’re going to have three immediate effects from this.

The first effect is you’re going to have a far more fit and lethal force, because the people that need it are going to be able to get up to that standard. That’s one. Two. The rate of military suicide is going to go down because a lot of those, you know, suicides have to do with depression and a lot of that depression.

You know, I believe, uh, and Chris Free believes comes from the low testosterone.

00:22:02.140 — 00:22:12.620 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Which one could take a step back and say frequent brain trauma can then affect the brain. This subsequently downstream effect is having low testosterone.

00:22:12.660 — 00:22:13.460 · Speaker 3
Correct.

00:22:13.700 — 00:22:46.270 · Tim Parlatore
And then the third effect is this will actually eradicate the use of anabolic steroids in the force because we’ve taken away the incentive. You know, if you if you need performance enhancement to get up to the standard where you’re supposed to be, we’re going to optimize you. You know, we’re not going to give you.

You know, Mr. Olympia, you know, type doses to where you can go become a competitive bodybuilder. We’re going to optimize you for what the medical community says is what you’re supposed to be.

00:22:46.310 — 00:22:56.070 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
And one, I want to just jump in here because this is probably the most important piece that I’m not hearing is you’re only treating those that are symptomatic.

00:22:56.070 — 00:22:56.670 · Speaker 3
Correct.

00:22:56.710 — 00:23:10.990 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
So it’s not about we want our guy. Yes. Personally, of course, we want stronger, more robust operators. But these are men 30 and up that are symptomatic.

00:23:11.030 — 00:23:11.790 · Speaker 3
Correct.

00:23:11.950 — 00:23:14.070 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Plus having low testosterone.

00:23:14.110 — 00:23:14.270 · Speaker 3
Right.

00:23:14.310 — 00:23:23.600 · Tim Parlatore
If a high performer comes in and says, you know, I’m I’m plateaued at a 315 bench and I want to get up to 400. We’re not given testosterone for that.

00:23:23.640 — 00:23:24.200 · Speaker 3
Okay, that’s.

00:23:24.240 — 00:23:24.920 · Tim Parlatore
That’s not.

00:23:24.920 — 00:23:25.120 · Speaker 3
It.

00:23:25.120 — 00:23:41.480 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
But that’s what people have to understand. This is not. You guys are taking into account the expert guidelines outside of the military for symptomatic men. And you said something else to me. You said if someone has low thyroid, you treat the thyroid right?

00:23:42.280 — 00:24:21.890 · Tim Parlatore
Exactly. You treat all these things, you treat a low thyroid. Why don’t you treat low testosterone? Everything. You treat conditions. But this is one of those conditions that medical communities just kind of say, well, seems too close to anabolic steroids. We don’t really want to treat that. In fact, we don’t even want to test for it.

We want to just ignore that, set it over to the side. But here’s the other thing is, not only are we going to be optimizing the people that are deficient because we’re testing everybody. Every year we’re also going to catch the people that are messing around.

00:24:22.930 — 00:24:25.010 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
That’s a really great point. I don’t think I’ve heard that.

00:24:25.050 — 00:24:26.010 · Speaker 3
Yes, because.

00:24:26.010 — 00:24:43.730 · Tim Parlatore
If you have guys that are otherwise perfectly healthy and they decide, okay, I’m going to go out and take massive amounts of steroids, and now we’re going to be testing them for their testosterone levels and everything. Some guy comes in, okay, you have you have a T level of 3000 okay.

00:24:43.770 — 00:24:48.450 · Speaker 3
Or oh come here. We’re going to talk. Let’s, uh. Yeah.

00:24:49.450 — 00:25:10.250 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Um, it’s a it’s a really good point. And, um, you know, I have heard this from world leading experts that there is no better biomarker for long term health or immune that is as effective as testosterone.

00:25:10.290 — 00:25:10.810 · Speaker 3
Right.

00:25:10.850 — 00:25:31.009 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
From bone protection, metabolic syndrome, glucose. All of these. In isolation, for example, someone might test an apple B, which for those listening might be part of a cholesterol panel or a hemoglobin ANC. But testosterone again, this isn’t even from my own

00:25:32.050 — 00:25:45.810 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Gabrielle Lyon study. This is from world class experts that have designed the hormone guidelines for our country. Says that there’s not a better biomarker.

00:25:46.450 — 00:25:52.130 · Tim Parlatore
Exactly. This is something that’s well-tested, well-established in civilian medicine.

00:25:52.490 — 00:25:53.410 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
That’s a really good point.

00:25:53.410 — 00:26:03.850 · Tim Parlatore
And so therefore, when we wanted to implement this and there was a lot of pushback internally of like, we we need to we need to do a study.

00:26:03.850 — 00:26:04.330 · Speaker 3
First.

00:26:04.370 — 00:26:05.690 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
A study about what.

00:26:05.970 — 00:26:06.370 · Speaker 3
Exactly.

00:26:06.410 — 00:26:07.810 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Everything has been studied.

00:26:07.810 — 00:26:08.330 · Speaker 3
For.

00:26:08.370 — 00:26:14.060 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Well, for men. And then we have safety outcomes like the traverse trial, which we’ll link to.

00:26:14.100 — 00:26:14.380 · Speaker 3
Right.

00:26:14.420 — 00:26:29.820 · Tim Parlatore
They wanted to do a study, but they couldn’t say what the what the study should be. They wanted to do a um yeah, they wanted to do some test cases. They wanted to do, you know, a pilot program with small the small group. What’s the point? Why do we need to do that?

00:26:30.460 — 00:26:42.100 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
And this was originally submitted in April of 2026. And, uh, does someone come back and say, oh, well, we should do a pilot program? Is that how does the.

00:26:42.220 — 00:27:13.470 · Tim Parlatore
So it goes through it goes through the staffing, uh, where a lot of people look at it and provide their inputs into it. And so that’s where, you know, a lot of the, um, you know, the internal discussions happened. Um, and so there were a lot of these suggestions of, oh, don’t go straight for this. Let’s, let’s try to slow this thing way down and let’s just do a pilot program.

Let’s do a study. Let’s try to hold off actual testing for another couple of years.

00:27:14.190 — 00:27:18.230 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
And gosh, that is just terrible. And it’s just terrible.

00:27:18.270 — 00:27:25.830 · Tim Parlatore
That’s when the secretary looked at it and said, no, this is already well established by civilian medicine. We’re doing.

00:27:25.830 — 00:27:26.190 · Speaker 3
It now.

00:27:26.230 — 00:28:06.070 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
You know, I just want to point out the obvious is that people will. I mean, you’re a lawyer. Uh, quite frankly, I don’t know your political views. Nor me, I ever. But I do know that you’re a lawyer, right? And whether health or whatever anyone’s political views are, health should be bipartisan, and health should be available to all people.

And if we don’t focus on the wellness of our troops and their families, then it’s a distraction. If it becomes about something that it’s it’s not correct.

00:28:06.070 — 00:28:32.159 · Tim Parlatore
And that’s one thing that we constantly have to deal with is that anything that gets signed by the secretary gets viewed through a political lens and then gets opposed through that lens. You know, you have the media that will go out. And, you know, I saw some reporters that the day the memo was signed, they started going going on X asking for experts who would who would be able to comment on why this is a bad idea

00:28:33.280 — 00:28:41.720 · Tim Parlatore
or not. We need experts, you know, to to give us an analysis of this. We need experts to show us why this is wrong.

00:28:42.080 — 00:28:46.400 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
And were there many experts volunteering that time?

00:28:46.400 — 00:28:46.839 · Tim Parlatore
Or

00:28:48.320 — 00:29:16.090 · Tim Parlatore
they found a few to come in and to try to say, you know, all sorts of things. And you’ve seen over the past couple of weeks various articles come out. Um, you know, I think there was one yesterday in the New York Times where they were saying that, you know, testosterone use increases aggression. And they had a a case study of a single person who had bipolar and alcoholism to show that when he took testosterone that he felt more aggressive.

00:29:16.130 — 00:29:17.410 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Can I ask your opinion on something?

00:29:17.450 — 00:29:18.010 · Speaker 3
Sure.

00:29:18.570 — 00:29:19.210 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Um,

00:29:20.290 — 00:29:20.970 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
why?

00:29:22.130 — 00:30:13.980 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Again, this is your opinion. But why would they do that? Meaning, if someone was a really good journalist, then they would look at the data. Or even if they’re a great doctor. But let’s just say they’re a journalist. They would look at the data and they would go, you know what? Low testosterone is a risk. Most of these guys are going to, at some point in their career, either a choose to be treated, b are going to have low testosterone, and three are going to be really symptomatic, right?

Why would someone go and pick just a rogue case? There’s got to be some underlying, um, driver because at the end of the day, it’s kind of like if two parents fight in front of their kid. Um, it’s about like the fighting as opposed to the family unit.

00:30:14.060 — 00:31:14.300 · Tim Parlatore
So this is one of the reasons, and this is my personal opinion. This is why I think podcasts are the future. Because the legacy media on both sides of the aisle, you have to remember what they are. Okay. The media at its core is an entertainment business. And what they do is they make their money by selling advertising.

They and they sell the most advertising by getting the most viewers. And so media companies are going to get the most views, the most clicks, the most likes and everything by giving their particular audience what that audience wants to hear. And so if you’re the New York Times, then your target audience are people that will click more and view more.

If you tell them Pete Hegseth bad. And then you’ll look over at Fox News and Fox News. They make a lot more money by getting more people to click who think Pete Hegseth good.

00:31:15.420 — 00:31:36.820 · Tim Parlatore
And so that’s so ultimately you’re not going to be able to get the honest truth, in my opinion, from the legacy media, because ultimately they’re not as much as they sit there and talk about, oh, we’re here to talk truth to power. We’re here to, you know, hold government accountable and everything. Know they’re there to sell advertising.

00:31:36.860 — 00:31:38.220 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
It’s very harmful.

00:31:38.260 — 00:31:39.060 · Speaker 3
Yes, they’re there.

00:31:39.500 — 00:31:42.260 · Tim Parlatore
But here’s the thing that’s not new.

00:31:43.300 — 00:31:57.820 · Tim Parlatore
That’s been the way that this country was founded. Okay. From the very beginnings of this country, the original newspapers were sponsored by the original two political parties. And so.

00:31:57.940 — 00:31:58.060 · Speaker 3
I.

00:31:58.060 — 00:31:59.740 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Didn’t actually I don’t think I knew.

00:31:59.780 — 00:32:00.180 · Speaker 3
That.

00:32:00.270 — 00:33:34.520 · Tim Parlatore
Yeah, absolutely. The original newspapers and the the New York Post was founded by Alexander Hamilton as a, uh, propaganda, um, you know, instrument of the Federalist Party and, and the it’s the one that survives from that day. But there was the other one, you know, for the Democratic-Republican party.

And so what they would do is they would publish anonymous essays, largely. Alexander Hamilton and Thomas Jefferson writing articles attacking each other and trying to show why whatever policy was wrong. So that’s not new. That’s that’s how the media has been since the beginning of this country. So it’s not surprising to me that anything that you do, you expect that certain outlets are going to go out there and try to find whatever they can to say that this is wrong.

And if the exact same policy was put out by a different administration, if the last administration had come in and said, hey, this is science based, we need to treat testosterone, then the roles would be reversed and you’d have, you know, The New York Times saying, trust the science. And you’d have, you know, Fox News saying, you know, this is some, you know, terrible plot by the by the left to try to hurt the fertility of the American military male.

You know, they either way, they’re going to find some way to attack it.

00:33:34.520 — 00:33:40.760 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
So the listener or the viewer. Um, do you think that they’ve gotten any more savvy?

00:33:44.040 — 00:33:45.440 · Tim Parlatore
If they want to be.

00:33:46.880 — 00:33:47.440 · Speaker 3
So.

00:33:47.440 — 00:33:53.920 · Tim Parlatore
The listener or the viewer, if they want to be more savvy, then they will go to podcasts.

00:33:54.360 — 00:33:56.560 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Where the person gets to speak.

00:33:56.600 — 00:33:58.050 · Speaker 3
Right. The people in charge.

00:33:58.090 — 00:35:04.500 · Tim Parlatore
The people that are listening right now are listening not because they they want to hear a certain result about what they think about the administration. The people that are listening to you right now want to learn about the science and the medical truth. And so that’s why they’re listening to you, as opposed to primarily consuming from, you know, from the mass media.

And if you look at every one of these outlets, they all have their distinct audience, and people will get all of their media, all their information from that one source. Yeah. If you look at my phone, you will see that I have, you know, my news outlets on there. And and so I read both sides. You know, when something happens, I will read the Fox News version of it and I’ll read the CNN version of it.

And so if you read both of those articles about the exact same event, that’s the only way you’re really going to get closer to what the truth is about it. Unless you can go on to a podcast and listen to somebody describe it who is actually.

00:35:04.500 — 00:35:05.220 · Speaker 3
Involved in.

00:35:05.260 — 00:35:15.139 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
It, I am hoping. Which is why I didn’t start out with your history. I’m hoping people have maintained, and I believe that our audience is

00:35:16.460 — 00:35:47.980 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
open minded, otherwise they wouldn’t be listening for transparent conversations. I, um, I’m hoping that they are listening to the science and the medicine because at the end of the day, um, administrations come and go, right? But our military members are men, our young men and our women, which we’re going to talk about next, need appropriate care.

And if everything is politicized, look at the food pyramid.

00:35:49.020 — 00:36:17.590 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Um. That changed. Correct. Finally, um, people would be like, oh, well, the food guy pyramid changed and and, um, yeah, it took 50 plus years to get any kind of change. And frankly, it doesn’t matter what administration is there, it matters because we care about our children, right? Anyone that receives federal funding.

We care about nursing homes. We care about military, that they’re getting good nutrition.

00:36:17.630 — 00:36:17.910 · Speaker 3
Right.

00:36:17.910 — 00:36:40.590 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
And if it becomes about the parties. Right, just like this, I mean, I see things out there, um, you know, that they’re trying to make super soldiers and, and all of this other stuff. And I’m thinking, um, you know, those of us who’ve cared for military operators, right? Uh, we’re not even talking about the super soldier.

00:36:40.630 — 00:36:41.190 · Speaker 3
Correct.

00:36:41.230 — 00:36:46.950 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
We’re talking about an ability to live a life that is functional.

00:36:48.110 — 00:36:49.350 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Um, period.

00:36:49.470 — 00:36:59.310 · Tim Parlatore
You gotta remember when you talk about the super soldier for the first ten years. You’re not even getting tested. You know, we’re testing people starting at 30. So.

00:36:59.550 — 00:37:00.070 · Speaker 3
That’s right.

00:37:00.270 — 00:37:04.670 · Tim Parlatore
Actually, people will enlist it at 18, 19 or 20 years old.

00:37:04.710 — 00:37:05.750 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
When did you enlist?

00:37:05.790 — 00:37:42.110 · Tim Parlatore
Uh, so I joined the Navy in 19. Um. Yeah, I was. I went to the Naval Academy, um, is where I joined. So I was 19 years old. And so for me, they would not have tested me until I’d been in for 11 years. And so, you know, guys that enlist in the Navy or in the Army, and they go through all the Special forces training and everything else, and then they go operate.

We’re not making them super soldiers, because we’re not even testing their testosterone until they’ve actually been in the special operations community or whatever.

00:37:42.110 — 00:37:42.910 · Speaker 4
It is.

00:37:43.070 — 00:37:52.240 · Tim Parlatore
For almost a decade. So that’s that’s another important piece. We’re talking about taking more senior people and keeping them in the fight.

00:37:52.280 — 00:37:57.760 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
That’s a really good point. Yeah. The next biggest criticism is what about women?

00:37:58.960 — 00:37:59.960 · Speaker 4
So this is.

00:38:00.120 — 00:38:11.320 · Tim Parlatore
Um, this is a very important point. We decided to start with testosterone because for two reasons. One, it’s the largest population.

00:38:11.360 — 00:38:11.720 · Speaker 3
Okay.

00:38:11.760 — 00:38:22.520 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
And when you say largest population, um, do you mean, uh, 98% of those that are on the front lines are,

00:38:23.640 — 00:38:24.960 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
uh, male or.

00:38:26.640 — 00:38:48.850 · Tim Parlatore
Less than 18% of the entire US military is female. And so you don’t have to be just on the front lines. Again, what I was saying earlier about people on the ships, you know, this goes beyond just the special operations community. I mean, yes, when when you’re talking about ground combat infantry, special operations there, women make up about 2%.

00:38:48.890 — 00:39:01.210 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
2%. Is it safe to say I have one more question? Is it safe to say that those on the ground combat with low testosterone going into war are going to be at a disadvantage?

00:39:01.490 — 00:39:03.530 · Speaker 3
Yes, absolutely.

00:39:04.130 — 00:39:08.050 · Tim Parlatore
And that’s why those guys, you know, particularly the older guys

00:39:09.130 — 00:39:14.570 · Tim Parlatore
are unfortunately are either go in and get it on their own or they’re watching out.

00:39:14.610 — 00:39:19.730 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Yeah, I’m just concerned as a physician for the safety of our guys. Just want to know that if.

00:39:20.450 — 00:39:21.170 · Speaker 3
Yeah. So.

00:39:21.370 — 00:40:03.540 · Tim Parlatore
So first it’s the largest population. Second of all, it is something that, you know, through Chris Freese work and others, we know that what we have done to them by putting them through this particular lifestyle is what leads to this particular deficiency. Okay. So it’s it’s the single largest population and it’s the deficiency that the military has created.

And so that is why it is the low hanging fruit to start with. But you know, earlier I mentioned how we have, you know, the public memo that came out, which is the shortened version from the secretary. And then there’s the underlying memo that, um, that’s attached and that they’re using to implement this.

00:40:03.580 — 00:40:04.900 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Will we ever get to see that?

00:40:04.940 — 00:40:35.620 · Tim Parlatore
Uh, probably not. Um, just because that’s the pre decisional, you know, piece of it. But one of the things in there is that the Secretary wants to do is, yes, we are including women in this. We are including let’s figure out how to best test and optimize women as well. Uh, you know, the initial memo that went out about giving the annual testing, it was not gender specific.

So yes, it does include women, but

00:40:36.780 — 00:40:55.510 · Tim Parlatore
the goal here is to make sure that we’re optimizing everybody, not just the men, but. and you can speak to this a lot more than I can. Optimizing women’s hormone health is a little bit more complicated than just, okay, low testosterone, you know?

00:40:55.910 — 00:41:11.110 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
But what I’m hearing you say is that the original memo, which no one has seen for the most part. Right. Um, is generated, written, which is written and included with experts.

00:41:11.150 — 00:41:11.590 · Speaker 3
Yes.

00:41:11.630 — 00:41:20.190 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
World class experts that are familiar with military operators that are familiar with, um, nutrition, that are also familiar with.

00:41:20.230 — 00:41:21.830 · Speaker 3
It was drafted by.

00:41:21.830 — 00:41:26.510 · Tim Parlatore
A lawyer with massive input from medical.

00:41:26.510 — 00:41:26.990 · Speaker 3
Professionals.

00:41:27.110 — 00:41:27.790 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
I just want.

00:41:27.830 — 00:41:28.830 · Speaker 3
To clear up.

00:41:29.070 — 00:41:32.230 · Tim Parlatore
It does not rely upon the medical knowledge of a lawyer.

00:41:32.270 — 00:41:32.830 · Speaker 3
Okay.

00:41:33.110 — 00:41:47.710 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
But I want to clear that up, because then you know what is then out there with all this loud commentary, right? Is that, it’s framed in one way, but actually the memo. The actual document says one.

00:41:47.750 — 00:41:48.270 · Speaker 3
The one.

00:41:48.270 — 00:41:48.990 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Thing versus.

00:41:49.030 — 00:41:49.190 · Speaker 3
The.

00:41:49.190 — 00:42:05.830 · Tim Parlatore
Initial implementing step is to mandate testing for testosterone. But the larger program is to do much more comprehensive optimization for everybody’s life.

00:42:06.510 — 00:42:13.310 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Um, well, that certainly isn’t what we’re hearing in the media. Um, so.

00:42:13.310 — 00:42:13.710 · Speaker 3
It doesn’t.

00:42:13.710 — 00:42:15.110 · Tim Parlatore
Help their narrative doesn’t help them.

00:42:15.150 — 00:42:15.910 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
It doesn’t.

00:42:15.950 — 00:42:16.270 · Speaker 3
But I.

00:42:16.310 — 00:42:16.670 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Certainly.

00:42:16.670 — 00:42:17.390 · Speaker 3
Appreciate.

00:42:17.830 — 00:42:55.440 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
It doesn’t sell advertising. And also, I think, um, one thing to note is that well-meaning physicians might misinterpret that, for example, some of my fellow female physicians, because they didn’t read the memo, um, nor would I expect them to, are then making statements based on hearsay, which for then other female physicians, other people.

It’s almost as if only the men are going to get tested and treated when that’s not at all. What? Um, what I’m hearing is, is indicated.

00:42:55.480 — 00:42:59.960 · Tim Parlatore
Well, the New York Times did ridicule us for saying we’re going to test females for testosterone.

00:42:59.960 — 00:43:01.840 · Speaker 3
But yes.

00:43:01.840 — 00:43:12.440 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
And it’s fair to say that, um, androgen therapy is not well studied in women. Uh, all of those things are fair. But that’s not, um,

00:43:13.480 — 00:43:23.760 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
that’s not really what the goal of this is. It’s not about making super masculine, masculine izing women.

00:43:23.840 — 00:43:25.440 · Speaker 3
No, definitely not.

00:43:25.480 — 00:43:39.410 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Because there’s a huge gap in what is going to be implemented or what is now implemented. Right. The memo is signed. And then if someone chooses, is it optional? Can you speak to a little bit about the details. Yeah.

00:43:39.490 — 00:44:20.330 · Tim Parlatore
So this is one of the things that came out of the Covid vaccine. The secretary is, uh, violently against mandatory medical treatment. He believes very strongly that people should have their individual choice on that. So, um, if somebody tests low for testosterone and they want to be low testosterone and they don’t want to.

And to be clear, it’s not just about, you know, you test low and, you know, you either get to TRT or you don’t. Um, and I, I defer to you on this. There are a lot of different treatment options available to them.

00:44:20.370 — 00:44:20.970 · Speaker 3
There are.

00:44:21.010 — 00:44:27.730 · Tim Parlatore
And so whether it’s TRT, whether it’s in Colombia, fame, whether it’s they’re slightly low. And so they can make some lifestyle.

00:44:27.930 — 00:44:28.210 · Speaker 3
Or.

00:44:28.370 — 00:44:30.610 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Clomid or hCG depending.

00:44:30.730 — 00:45:04.660 · Tim Parlatore
There’s so many different options out there that ultimately it requires a service member and a trained doctor to sit down and discuss not only the test results, but also other biomarkers, also what their symptoms are, what type of effect it’s had on them, and what their lifestyle is, and so what they then individually choose is best for them.

And if they individually choose like, hey, I feel fine, I don’t need anything,

00:45:05.820 — 00:45:07.460 · Tim Parlatore
okay. That’s their.

00:45:07.460 — 00:45:08.620 · Speaker 3
Choice. Mhm.

00:45:10.020 — 00:45:19.540 · Tim Parlatore
And it’s we’re not we’re not going to say Covid vaccine is now optional but testosterone is mandatory. That’s not that’s not at all how he looks at things.

00:45:19.580 — 00:45:21.860 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Is there anything else you wanted to cover. Because I

00:45:23.620 — 00:45:41.230 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
want to know why this even matters to you. So before we switch to you, your favorite subject, I want to make sure that we have everything that needs to be said about any kind of misconception about what the memo is indicated for versus a mandate of testing.

00:45:42.270 — 00:45:49.510 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
This must be cleared up because you are the first person to talk about it in detail. Aside from the announcement.

00:45:49.590 — 00:45:57.790 · Tim Parlatore
And to be clear, I did speak to the, uh, to the Secretary and to the public affairs people, and they authorized me to be able to talk about this.

00:46:00.310 — 00:46:09.550 · Tim Parlatore
I think that rather than assuming bad motives, I would rather people ask questions if there’s something that’s not clear.

00:46:09.590 — 00:46:10.110 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
What a great.

00:46:10.110 — 00:46:10.670 · Speaker 3
Point.

00:46:10.750 — 00:46:46.280 · Tim Parlatore
Ask questions. Ask for ask for clarifying information. Um, and, you know, ask me, you know, I, I can explain these things, but ultimately, you know, there was a lot that went into this. Um, and so one of my, um, the reason why Chris Free and I started talking about this was because a friend of mine had gone through, uh, this, uh, this exact issue.

He was a marine, uh, and he had low testosterone. He was self-medicating.

00:46:46.520 — 00:46:48.000 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
With anabolic steroids.

00:46:48.400 — 00:46:49.120 · Speaker 3
Oh, yes.

00:46:49.520 — 00:47:00.479 · Tim Parlatore
Way too much anabolic. Not not doctor monitored. It messed with his head. It did a whole bunch of things. Uh, and it

00:47:01.720 — 00:47:26.000 · Tim Parlatore
he was medically retired, um, from the Marine Corps. And he was doing all of this stuff based on what the gym bros told him. But ultimately, he knew. And I spoke to him about this, and he actually did say, um, that this is a low testosterone, you know, thing that he was trying to combat. And, uh, but it messed his head.

00:47:26.000 — 00:47:26.440 · Speaker 3
Up.

00:47:26.480 — 00:47:27.520 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
So badly.

00:47:27.840 — 00:47:28.000 · Speaker 3
To.

00:47:28.000 — 00:47:28.800 · Tim Parlatore
The point where he killed.

00:47:28.800 — 00:47:30.000 · Speaker 3
Himself. Oh,

00:47:31.320 — 00:47:32.160 · Speaker 3
Gosh.

00:47:33.520 — 00:47:34.120 · Tim Parlatore
And

00:47:35.920 — 00:47:56.920 · Tim Parlatore
after that, and it was literally it was a month after I had talked to him about this exact issue. And we we had discussed the self-medication piece of this. And, and so when he passed, I said, okay, I need I need to meet Chris Fri. He and I need to talk to him.

00:47:57.240 — 00:47:58.520 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
How long ago was that?

00:47:59.040 — 00:48:00.320 · Speaker 3
Uh, two years.

00:48:00.680 — 00:48:11.320 · Tim Parlatore
And so I need to meet Chris Fri. I need to talk to him about this. And? And I got on the phone with him, and I said, yeah.

00:48:12.320 — 00:48:13.520 · Speaker 3
Love your work.

00:48:14.200 — 00:48:15.960 · Tim Parlatore
Read your book. Love it.

00:48:17.400 — 00:48:24.400 · Tim Parlatore
But, you know, doctors are really great at doing research and coming to what the truth is.

00:48:25.680 — 00:48:58.290 · Tim Parlatore
Lawyers may be better at selling it because you gotta remember. What is my job? My job is to stand in front of 12 people with completely different opinions and try and get them all agree to agree on something. And I said to them, here’s what we need to do. And I and I kind of when I told him about the idea of veterans and military members going to the gym, bro, to get anabolic as a self-medication thing, because we always talk about self-medication in terms.

00:48:58.290 — 00:48:58.450 · Speaker 3
Of.

00:48:58.650 — 00:49:02.170 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
I’ve never heard of that. I never have heard of that myself.

00:49:02.170 — 00:49:09.690 · Tim Parlatore
We always talk about it in terms of alcohol. But when I when I said to him about self-medication with antibiotics, he said.

00:49:10.170 — 00:49:11.050 · Speaker 3
That’s it.

00:49:11.050 — 00:49:41.620 · Tim Parlatore
And this was, you know, well before the elections and everything. And we talked about it and we put together like, how can we present this thing? And we were putting together a real plan on this that we were going to do, no matter which way the election went? Um, and of course, when, you know, when the election went the way that it went.

And we had Pete Hegseth in the Pentagon, so such that I could very directly just sit down and tell them, hey, this is this is what we think.

00:49:41.860 — 00:49:42.420 · Speaker 3
Mhm.

00:49:42.780 — 00:49:53.660 · Tim Parlatore
Um, then it was something that actually we were able to operationalize. But you know, it’s and again I want to be very clear I’m not a doctor.

00:49:53.940 — 00:49:54.500 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
They went on.

00:49:54.500 — 00:49:54.980 · Speaker 3
TV.

00:49:55.020 — 00:49:58.340 · Tim Parlatore
Um well I have a Juris Doctor degree but it’s a.

00:49:58.620 — 00:49:59.180 · Speaker 3
You know, so you.

00:49:59.180 — 00:49:59.340 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Know.

00:49:59.540 — 00:49:59.900 · Speaker 3
Because.

00:50:00.220 — 00:50:13.740 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
You know you know, we make this joke, um, just to lighten up the mood that if you’re on an airplane and someone says, is there a doctor on the plane? And, uh, if you don’t stand up, then yeah, then we’ll make it.

00:50:13.780 — 00:50:16.940 · Tim Parlatore
Uh, and if somebody says their lawyer on the plane, we got a bigger problem.

00:50:17.100 — 00:50:17.820 · Speaker 3
But.

00:50:18.380 — 00:50:18.980 · Tim Parlatore
Um,

00:50:20.860 — 00:50:51.150 · Tim Parlatore
I don’t know the medicine, obviously, as well as you. I don’t want to pretend to be an expert at it. But I do know from my friend’s experience, from my experience, my own personal experience, and from, you know, reading, you know, your book and others. I know enough to know this is a problem and this is how we can sell it.

You know, this is how we can get the decision makers to say, okay, we need to do something about it. And

00:50:52.190 — 00:51:03.790 · Tim Parlatore
the reality is, and again, you know this better than I do if we do this now, if we optimize people’s testosterone when they’re at this age,

00:51:05.430 — 00:51:08.990 · Tim Parlatore
yes, it’s going to put a little bit extra cost on the Pentagon budget.

00:51:10.110 — 00:51:11.430 · Tim Parlatore
How much money is it going to save?

00:51:11.630 — 00:51:12.070 · Speaker 3
It’s going to.

00:51:12.110 — 00:51:13.990 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Save on the but on the back end.

00:51:14.030 — 00:51:14.390 · Speaker 3
Right.

00:51:14.430 — 00:52:08.440 · Tim Parlatore
How much how much money are we going to save in the VA’s budget by having people healthier at this end? And obviously, what we do in the department can set the standard nationwide. Because here’s the other piece of this is that there’s the research aspect of it to where when we are testing all of these people every single year, we can see the trends and we’re gonna have a massive data set, anonymized, of course, for research purposes.

But you can also then take that and put it against other markers that you’re not going to have in a lot of these civilian trials, because guess what else we’re going to have? We’re going to have their annual body composition analysis. We’re going to have their annual physical readiness test or every six months rather.

So you’re going to be able to see on a chart as the testosterone goes down,

00:52:10.040 — 00:52:44.370 · Tim Parlatore
the number of pushups they can do goes down. The speed at which they run a mile and a half goes down, and you’re going to be able to see all of those things together, and then you’re going to see, okay, now we’ve we’ve put them on TRT. What does that do. That brings their testosterone up. Now their push ups have gone up.

And so there’s actually you know, in addition to being able to help these individual service members, there’s also a tremendous, um, you know, research opportunity here that, um, you know, Admiral Christine.

00:52:44.770 — 00:52:46.970 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Um, doctor Brian. Christine, who’s a urologist.

00:52:47.010 — 00:52:48.730 · Speaker 3
Correct. He is.

00:52:48.730 — 00:52:49.730 · Tim Parlatore
Very excited about.

00:52:49.730 — 00:52:49.930 · Speaker 3
This.

00:52:50.290 — 00:52:51.330 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Very excited.

00:52:52.210 — 00:52:58.530 · Tim Parlatore
Um, he called me up the day the memo got issued. He was he was all pumped up for this. And

00:52:59.730 — 00:53:07.889 · Tim Parlatore
because we’re going to be able to do more lasting impact across the board, um, by

00:53:09.010 — 00:53:38.170 · Tim Parlatore
taking all of the research that’s been done in the civilian sector, applying it in this very specified population, and then using the results of that application to then go back to the civilian population and say, look at this. You know, you’ve done the research to give us a science of what it is. We’ve done the implementation to show you how it actually significantly improves health.

And now we can make it more of a nationwide thing.

00:53:40.050 — 00:53:42.249 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Do you think it’s important to

00:53:43.850 — 00:54:02.290 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
talk? And you might not and this might not be the conversation for it, but do you think it’s important to address the pushback? The people will say, well, what about fertility? And what about X, Y, and Z? Do you think that that and I mean, truly, we can take this out or not? Also, it’s hot AF in here.

00:54:02.610 — 00:54:04.010 · Speaker 3
I dropped the I talked before.

00:54:04.010 — 00:54:05.170 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Are you hot or are you good?

00:54:05.210 — 00:54:05.770 · Speaker 3
I’m good.

00:54:05.890 — 00:54:13.210 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Oh, God, it’s so hot. Can you text you to turn the air down to make it colder? But wait. What?

00:54:13.250 — 00:54:14.890 · Speaker 5
30 at 70, I dropped it.

00:54:14.930 — 00:54:19.980 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Okay, that’s too hot. All right. Can you answer? Um. And again, this might not be.

00:54:20.180 — 00:54:20.420 · Speaker 3
Uh.

00:54:20.460 — 00:54:21.580 · Tim Parlatore
Male fertility.

00:54:22.340 — 00:54:22.900 · Speaker 3
Yeah.

00:54:22.900 — 00:54:31.700 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
So, for example, like, if someone is. Okay, well, now you’re going to put 30 year olds, but do you think, should we talk to you about it? Okay.

00:54:32.660 — 00:54:49.700 · Tim Parlatore
This is part of the individualized choice that people have to make. And so whether they decide to, you know, use an alternative, you know, a Clomid type of, uh, treatment, whether they decide to bank their sperm. Uh, one thing I can guarantee you,

00:54:50.740 — 00:54:58.060 · Tim Parlatore
Pete Hegseth is not embarking on some secret plan to sterilize the American military.

00:54:58.060 — 00:54:58.500 · Speaker 3
Male.

00:54:58.540 — 00:54:59.980 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Oh, is that something that was said?

00:55:00.100 — 00:55:01.020 · Speaker 3
I mean, that’s okay.

00:55:01.060 — 00:55:19.550 · Tim Parlatore
It’s it’s not something that, you know, the fertility hasn’t really become as much of an issue, I think, because I don’t think anybody can look at him and the sheer volume of children that he has produced and say, um, that he wants to, um, you know, wants to sterilize the American military.

00:55:19.590 — 00:55:19.990 · Speaker 3
Warrior.

00:55:20.030 — 00:55:22.630 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Did you anticipate. Um,

00:55:23.870 — 00:55:30.070 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
okay, so, uh, no, you’re on the record of saying he’s not. His goal is not to sterilize.

00:55:30.270 — 00:55:40.630 · Tim Parlatore
The goal here is by mandating testing first and then opening up, um, treatment as something that becomes acceptable,

00:55:42.270 — 00:55:55.430 · Tim Parlatore
that then it forces military medicine to get into the game, to actually focus on this, to actually learn about this, to start monitoring and then offering treatment.

00:55:55.750 — 00:55:56.150 · Speaker 3
Okay.

00:55:56.190 — 00:56:08.870 · Tim Parlatore
Because we have to break them out of this idea that if somebody comes to you, giving you all of these symptoms, ask him for a test that you can just simply say, oh, do you have erectile dysfunction? Nope.

00:56:08.910 — 00:56:09.590 · Speaker 3
All right.

00:56:09.670 — 00:56:10.190 · Tim Parlatore
Have a nice.

00:56:10.190 — 00:56:10.670 · Speaker 3
Day.

00:56:10.790 — 00:56:11.710 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Do you think that this.

00:56:11.750 — 00:56:13.190 · Tim Parlatore
Go eat less and move more?

00:56:13.550 — 00:56:58.680 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Gosh, that’s, been advice that hasn’t worked. Do you think that, um, I agree with you in that the military believes that this is performance enhancing, an outside provider who’s taking care of operators and, um, special operations in particular for many years? Uh, I would say, and I think many of my colleagues would say it’s just a baseline overall health.

You know, we’re not talking about making super operators. They’re already super themselves and they’re going to push through regardless. But do you think that the military and again, this is more your opinion, those in the military, do you think that they are going to say, no, no we need this.

00:56:58.720 — 00:57:02.040 · Speaker 3
Yes. Oh yes. Oh look, the uh.

00:57:02.480 — 00:57:07.040 · Tim Parlatore
The pushback has all been from outside. There’s no internal.

00:57:07.040 — 00:57:07.840 · Speaker 3
Pushback.

00:57:08.440 — 00:57:17.210 · Tim Parlatore
Guys are excited about this. I mean, particularly you look at the the senior special operations guys who’ve been going outside and doing.

00:57:17.210 — 00:57:17.370 · Speaker 3
This.

00:57:17.410 — 00:57:18.410 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
And needing it anyway.

00:57:18.450 — 00:57:19.570 · Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah.

00:57:19.650 — 00:57:39.050 · Tim Parlatore
All of a sudden. Okay, now the Navy’s going to do this for me. Now the Army’s going to do this for me. Now, I don’t have to pay extra out of pocket and then try to hide it, because if the Seal teams find out that I got a prescription that is well founded in science, well, you know, it is completely safe. But I got it from.

00:57:39.610 — 00:57:40.170 · Speaker 3
You.

00:57:40.210 — 00:57:47.370 · Tim Parlatore
As opposed to the Navy physician. Now, if the if the teams find out they’re going to order me to go cold turkey, they’re going to.

00:57:47.410 — 00:57:47.650 · Speaker 3
Kick.

00:57:47.650 — 00:58:00.530 · Tim Parlatore
Me out and everything else, we’re allowing them to do it. I mean, and quite frankly, the the biggest feedback that we’ve gotten from the force is this is awesome. Can we have peptides too?

00:58:00.570 — 00:58:02.330 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Oh, can I get to work on that?

00:58:02.370 — 00:58:02.770 · Speaker 3
Uh.

00:58:03.170 — 00:58:07.810 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
I’m waiting for the next, um, memo. But you,

00:58:09.010 — 00:58:12.010 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
uh, why do you care so much?

00:58:13.170 — 00:58:42.050 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Loaded question I’m not talking about your friend who lost his life, which is horrible. There’s not one veteran that I know that hasn’t lost someone to suicide. In fact, Shane was just sharing about one of the new guys that was on his team, which actually, can we link to? Um, I think that they created GoFundMe for his family fundraiser, so we’ll link to it.

Um.

00:58:44.210 — 00:58:48.970 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
You went to Naval Academy, decided to become a lawyer?

00:58:49.090 — 00:58:49.730 · Speaker 3
Yes.

00:58:49.970 — 00:59:11.900 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
And had an unusual career trajectory. Meaning, I think, if I’m saying this correctly, uh, you went to work with a lawyer that protected the biggest mobster in the world. Or at least, uh, for what we know. Can. Yeah. Tell me about.

00:59:11.900 — 00:59:14.540 · Speaker 3
That. Ah. So.

00:59:16.020 — 00:59:51.900 · Tim Parlatore
Yeah. So my, my path of how I got here, um, is very, um, nontraditional, shall we say. Yeah. I went to the Naval Academy undergrad. Uh, I became a surface warfare officer. I spent three years on a guided missile cruiser. Uh, I then, you know, got off active duty. I went to law school, stayed in the reserves, uh, and became a criminal defense attorney in New York City and ended up partnering with a guy named Bruce Cutler, uh, who was a legend.

00:59:51.940 — 00:59:52.420 · Speaker 3
Yes.

00:59:52.420 — 01:00:04.060 · Tim Parlatore
Famous for, um, having defended John Gotti through three separate acquittals and, uh, earning him the nickname of the Teflon Don back in the 80s and early 90s.

01:00:04.100 — 01:00:06.300 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Teflon Don, meaning nothing.

01:00:06.300 — 01:00:07.420 · Speaker 3
Nothing sticks.

01:00:07.950 — 01:00:10.270 · Tim Parlatore
Nothing stuck to to John.

01:00:10.950 — 01:00:13.910 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Um, to John Gotti, the biggest mobster.

01:00:14.670 — 01:00:15.630 · Speaker 3
Allegedly.

01:00:17.510 — 01:00:19.350 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Allegedly. Um,

01:00:20.510 — 01:00:31.630 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
yes. Allegedly. You, uh, the Naval Academy. Uh, again, from a perspective outside of, say, the military is a very honorable thing.

01:00:31.670 — 01:00:32.030 · Speaker 3
Yes.

01:00:32.030 — 01:00:32.909 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
And

01:00:33.990 — 01:01:04.910 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
I spent quite a few, at least an hour trying to understand when I hear criminal defense attorney. Right. As does everybody else, I’m assuming. I mean, I might be in my own world, but it’s. Excuse me? It’s defending someone who committed a crime. Um, to try to get them free or to get them off, which isn’t incorrect, but it’s it’s it’s like helping the bad guy.

01:01:04.990 — 01:01:08.480 · Tim Parlatore
You know, this was why I had such a difficult time dating.

01:01:08.720 — 01:01:11.000 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Because I think it was probably your profile.

01:01:11.440 — 01:01:12.320 · Speaker 3
No, no, this.

01:01:12.320 — 01:01:12.400 · Tim Parlatore
Is.

01:01:12.400 — 01:01:12.720 · Speaker 3
Before.

01:01:12.760 — 01:01:14.560 · Tim Parlatore
That, you know, um, but.

01:01:14.600 — 01:01:14.840 · Speaker 3
Because.

01:01:14.840 — 01:01:16.200 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
You were 70 pounds heavier.

01:01:16.240 — 01:01:17.160 · Speaker 3
Maybe that.

01:01:17.160 — 01:01:26.600 · Tim Parlatore
Too. But even even there. Yeah, I would go on so many first dates and, you know, halfway through the conversation. So how can you protect bad people like, okay, this is not going.

01:01:26.600 — 01:01:27.200 · Speaker 3
To work out.

01:01:27.920 — 01:01:30.760 · Tim Parlatore
Um, here’s how I look at it.

01:01:32.240 — 01:02:07.410 · Tim Parlatore
The Constitution protects everybody’s rights, and we have a system of justice in this country. It is not perfect, but it is the best in the world. And it is based on the principle that everybody is innocent until proven guilty. The government cannot simply throw you in jail because they think you are a bad person.

They have to prove your guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. And that system requires adversaries. Uh, it requires people to protect the rights of the accused.

01:02:07.450 — 01:02:08.810 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
What do you mean, adversaries?

01:02:08.850 — 01:02:31.330 · Tim Parlatore
It’s an adversarial system. Meaning you have lawyers on both sides that are fighting it out and advocating for each opposite point. Because if we simply pick up somebody and we say, you know what? This is a terrible person. We should put them in jail. That’s what they do in communist countries. They pick up somebody and they say, this is a terrible person because he spoke out against the party.

01:02:31.370 — 01:02:31.690 · Speaker 3
You know, you.

01:02:31.690 — 01:02:37.970 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Could have picked anything, right? You personally could have chosen any kind of law.

01:02:38.010 — 01:02:38.610 · Speaker 3
True.

01:02:38.930 — 01:02:41.250 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Why? Why this one?

01:02:42.330 — 01:02:43.810 · Speaker 3
It’s exciting to me.

01:02:44.330 — 01:02:46.290 · Tim Parlatore
It’s a challenge. It is

01:02:47.850 — 01:02:54.930 · Tim Parlatore
the highest stakes. And I think that one important point is I’m a private, uh, criminal.

01:02:54.930 — 01:02:55.970 · Speaker 3
Lawyer. What does that mean?

01:02:56.290 — 01:03:09.860 · Tim Parlatore
So I am not a public defender, a public defender. They show up in court, and the judge basically hands them people and they say, this is your client and they are assigned to you because they can’t afford a lawyer, and so you have to defend them.

01:03:09.980 — 01:03:16.220 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
So that’s the a lawyer. If you cannot afford a lawyer, a lawyer will be correct. I’ve watched a law and order those.

01:03:16.460 — 01:03:24.860 · Tim Parlatore
You know, being a public defender is very important work. It’s a very difficult work. Um, they don’t get to choose their clients. I do.

01:03:26.100 — 01:03:26.300 · Tim Parlatore
Uh.

01:03:26.700 — 01:03:34.140 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Meaning they could get a client that is either guilty or not guilty either way. Correct. It has to be evaluated.

01:03:34.140 — 01:03:34.940 · Speaker 3
Correct.

01:03:35.180 — 01:03:45.300 · Tim Parlatore
Uh, I, on the other hand, get to pick whether I want to represent somebody. You know, anybody who comes to me and says, I would like to hire you to represent me.

01:03:46.340 — 01:05:13.990 · Tim Parlatore
You know, yes, there’s obviously a financial negotiation, but it’s also a matter of, do I want to represent this person? You know, as a mentor of mine once said, the Constitution guarantees everyone the right to a defense, but it does not guarantee everyone the right to me. And so that’s, you know, for me, I have gotten to the point in my career where I really can pick and choose whether I want to represent somebody or not.

And so, yes, I have a high percentage of clients that are innocent. I have a high percentage of clients that are charged that are, that have committed a crime, but not what they’re charged with. And this is something that the government does a lot, is that you may have made a mistake, you may have done something, but they will come in and they will say that you have done far worse.

And so I don’t always represent innocent people, but I usually represent people that are more innocent than the government claims. And and so that is the reason why you have this system is to protect those people, to make sure that if they are ultimately going to plead guilty, if they are going to go to jail or be punished.

They have to be punished for what they actually did, as opposed to what some government lawyer who’s looking to make a name for themselves, looking to advance their career, has decided to inflate it up into a your.

01:05:14.590 — 01:05:27.870 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Um, client list. Um, and people can look this up is many of them are very high profile. Yeah. Can I list a few? I mean, the public ones, anyway. Yeah. Uh, because I don’t actually know any of the ones that are not public.

01:05:28.190 — 01:05:29.910 · Tim Parlatore
High profile ones are public.

01:05:29.950 — 01:05:31.270 · Speaker 3
Right. They are.

01:05:31.990 — 01:06:01.360 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Um, so there was the Eddie Gallagher case. Eddie Gallagher was a Seal. Who? Or is he a former Seal? Who retired seal. Um, and you can mention I don’t want to butcher the story, but just that there was him and there was a handful of other people. If you just want to mention so that the the listener who is unfamiliar with.

You can get a sense of, um, the people that you’ve protected.

01:06:01.400 — 01:06:02.360 · Speaker 3
Sure. So.

01:06:02.680 — 01:06:08.360 · Tim Parlatore
You know, Eddie Gallagher was a Seal who was wrongfully accused of having committed war crimes.

01:06:09.080 — 01:06:12.240 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
And war crimes are usually homicide.

01:06:12.240 — 01:06:13.400 · Speaker 3
Or he was.

01:06:13.400 — 01:06:48.040 · Tim Parlatore
He was accused of murdering a prisoner and shooting innocent civilians in Iraq during the 2017 battle of Mosul. He was innocent of those charges. Um, and he was facing life in prison. Um, and so I tried that case, and he was found not guilty. Uh, so, you know, that’s one of the big high profile ones I represented the former commissioner of the New York City Police Department, Bernie Kerik.

Uh, he was the police commissioner who led the response to nine over 11 in New York City.

01:06:48.600 — 01:06:53.560 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Uh, what was he allegedly charged or what’s the right? What is the right words?

01:06:53.600 — 01:06:54.480 · Speaker 3
Well, he so.

01:06:54.490 — 01:07:08.690 · Tim Parlatore
He had a, um, he had a tax case. Um, but that was before I represented him. I represented him after the tax case on certain civil issues, um, related to it, um,

01:07:09.850 — 01:08:33.259 · Tim Parlatore
to really kind of put what he had been convicted of into context and to, uh, show that, you know, that it was not something that, you know, he was not he was not a criminal. Yeah. He was a very good, good man. Uh, who? Sure. He made a couple of mistakes, but, um, he was a very good man and a true hero. Um, I’ve, I’ve represented, um, I represented Donald Trump during the Mar-A-Lago and January 6th investigations.

Uh, I represented three guys who parachuted off of the top of one World Trade Center. Uh, I represented a seal, um, a Devgru seal who was accused of, uh. Of a hazing incident in Mali that resulted in the death of a Green Beret. Uh, I represented, uh, Matt Bissonette, uh, seal, who, uh, wrote the book about, uh, the mission to kill bin laden.

And, you know, the fallout from that. Um, I represented the first four star admiral ever charged, uh, in a in a criminal case. In a bribery case. Um, I’ve had a lot of, um, a lot of very interesting and high profile cases over the years.

01:08:33.339 — 01:08:43.100 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
You have also been on Sean Ryan’s podcast, um, four times. Uh, and you’ve talked about these cases, some of these cases.

01:08:43.140 — 01:08:43.460 · Speaker 3
Sure.

01:08:43.500 — 01:08:50.299 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
If you have a bad day, a guy like Eddie Gallagher goes to prison for the rest of his life.

01:08:50.509 — 01:08:51.509 · Speaker 3
Correct.

01:08:52.350 — 01:08:53.629 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
That is

01:08:54.750 — 01:09:05.750 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
an austere condition. That is a I can’t even imagine. Um, you know, there’s physical warfare and then there’s mental warfare. Yes. Um.

01:09:08.190 — 01:09:10.630 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
How do you compartmentalize that?

01:09:14.750 — 01:09:23.909 · Tim Parlatore
What you said there is exactly correct. I consider trial to be a form of psychological warfare, and

01:09:25.430 — 01:09:30.549 · Tim Parlatore
I keep always in front of me my client’s best interest.

01:09:32.190 — 01:09:47.990 · Tim Parlatore
I’ve been very fortunate to represent a lot of people that I like very much. Um, I like Eddie Gallagher. He and I got along really, really well. I liked a lot of these clients, and.

01:09:50.230 — 01:10:12.550 · Tim Parlatore
Even though a lot of these cases ended up having, you know, political dimensions to them. Or a lot of these clients are political figures. Um, my job was always to focus on the facts and the law, not the politics. I have to often be aware of the politics to the extent that it affects what happens inside the courtroom.

But, um,

01:10:14.190 — 01:10:42.870 · Tim Parlatore
you know, when I represented President Trump, this was during the investigations. It was before the elections. I did a lot of TV interviews at the time. Um, and one of the I was a regular on CNN and MSNBC at the time. And one of the things that I always said was, I’m a lawyer. I’m not part of the campaign. I am going to tell you in great detail why he should not go to jail.

01:10:45.190 — 01:11:07.440 · Tim Parlatore
Whether he should go back to the Oval Office. That’s a question for the campaign. You can discuss that with them. That’s not my job. My job is this. And, you know, at the same time, obviously, in the way that I litigate the case, I have to keep in mind how the politics affect the decision makers, how the politics affect the opposing counsel.

01:11:08.760 — 01:11:11.480 · Tim Parlatore
Um, how do I compartmentalize?

01:11:11.800 — 01:12:24.890 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
You know, as I’m listening to you, I’m thinking, okay, um, this is an example of how you do what you do so well because you are one of the best. And a surgeon goes in, they can see the blood pressure. They have, uh, studied what the case is going to look like, how it’s going to go, who their support staff is, you know, the timing, how we’re going to remove X, Y and Z.

And there’s a lot of, um, there’s physical ability, right. There’s trained ability that is totally different than what you are on the line to do is, um. It’s it’s completely different. I mean, just trying to empathize, meaning put myself in that position. I, I don’t know, I couldn’t even what if I say the wrong thing or what if I, you know, it’s not simply you do the best job you can, right?

Like that? I don’t care about who cares about that, right? Can you imagine? You know, because in in today’s society it’s like, well, give it your best effort. No, it’s if you I don’t care if you gave the best effort ever. Did the guy go to prison for the rest of his life? Correct. Did you ruin his life? Correct or not?

01:12:24.930 — 01:12:25.730 · Speaker 3
Correct.

01:12:26.250 — 01:12:37.690 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
That. And I didn’t hear you answer that because I think that I have my philosophy. I think that is innate to who you are. I think that when the stakes get high,

01:12:38.930 — 01:12:55.540 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
there is a level of I you can function and it just allows you to. Um. Because I looked, I spent a long time looking to see if I’ve ever seen you ruffled on any interview anywhere. I didn’t, I couldn’t.

01:12:59.220 — 01:13:02.220 · Tim Parlatore
Say I, I’ve become very good at not showing it.

01:13:02.420 — 01:13:04.020 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Um, yeah. There was no.

01:13:04.020 — 01:13:05.940 · Speaker 3
Towels. Right? So? So.

01:13:06.300 — 01:13:06.780 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
No, I.

01:13:06.820 — 01:13:07.660 · Speaker 3
Twitch. Well, there’s.

01:13:07.660 — 01:13:11.100 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
No sweat, like, you know, no stumble.

01:13:11.660 — 01:13:20.660 · Tim Parlatore
There’s a lot of things that that play into it. So first of all, when I went to law school, it kind of starts really at the beginning because to me,

01:13:22.060 — 01:14:10.350 · Tim Parlatore
I went to law school after having served on active duty. And so the vast majority of my classmates at law school, they went from high school to college to law school. None of them had ever been in the real world. Uh, I was on my second deployment. Uh, we were doing counter piracy operations off the coast of Somalia.

When my time came up. And so I had to take a small boat into Djibouti. I slept in a tent for a week there, um, and then caught a flight back. Go into Brooklyn law School, go sit in the auditorium. And the. The dean says, welcome to law school. This is nothing like college. Next year will be the most stressful experience of your life.

01:14:11.950 — 01:14:16.310 · Tim Parlatore
I looked around the room and I realized everybody in here just.

01:14:16.310 — 01:14:17.190 · Speaker 3
Believed.

01:14:17.190 — 01:14:26.430 · Tim Parlatore
What she said. And they’re going to manifest that in how they act for the for the next year.

01:14:27.990 — 01:15:09.760 · Tim Parlatore
This is not going to be the most stressful experience of my life. Not by any stretch. And so I went through law school with that mindset that I’m here to learn. I’m here to get the degree, because ultimately you need a law degree as your entrance ticket to take the bar exam. The bar exam is the entrance ticket to get your license, and then you can go out and actually learn how to be a lawyer.

Um, law school does not prepare you to be a lawyer. Um, law school is primarily taught by law professors who I’ve always said the definition of a full time law professor is failed lawyer. So,

01:15:10.960 — 01:15:38.160 · Tim Parlatore
yeah, very academic theory, but very little practical. This is how you do. It’s not like medical school where they say, okay, this is this is the heart, and this is how you fix the valve. You know that that doesn’t exist in the law school. But at the same time, while there are procedures in law, you know, the rules of criminal procedure, the rules of civil procedure, those are just like.

01:15:38.360 — 01:15:38.960 · Speaker 3
What.

01:15:38.960 — 01:15:49.160 · Tim Parlatore
You need to file and when and how you need to make a motion. But the content is very fact specific and there is no guidebook for that.

01:15:49.520 — 01:15:50.040 · Speaker 3
What do you.

01:15:50.200 — 01:15:52.560 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
What do you mean fact specific.

01:15:52.920 — 01:16:24.840 · Tim Parlatore
Meaning that it has to be based on the individual facts of the case. And there’s no guidebook for that. There is no, um, you know, chart of like Shame was showing me the other day a great treatment chart that says, that says, you know, if you take this test, you know, and is it above or below? And then it goes into this whole, you know, tree decision tree of, you know, do they have this symptom?

Okay, go over here. And then ultimately, here’s the type of treatment that doesn’t exist in my world.

01:16:25.960 — 01:16:51.170 · Tim Parlatore
I have to sit there and listen to the client’s story, compare it to what the government is saying. In a criminal case, civil cases are somewhat similar, but I take my client’s story and I compare it to what the government is saying. And then I try to figure out, okay. Ultimately, I have to stand in front of a jury of 12 people, and I have to tell my client’s story in a way that makes them say,

01:16:52.810 — 01:16:55.169 · Tim Parlatore
he’s not guilty. And

01:16:56.210 — 01:17:08.970 · Tim Parlatore
how can I make my story more compelling than their story? Where are the holes in their story? Okay, they’re they’re relying upon this witness here. Their whole case relies upon the credibility of a single witness

01:17:10.130 — 01:18:02.500 · Tim Parlatore
who, based on my investigation, I’ve been able to determine this person has lied previously about this. They’ve. They have this problem. They have this hatred for my client. And so how do I present that to the jury so that I can ultimately stand up and say their entire case rests upon the say so of this one person, one person came in and told you that they saw it.

They don’t have any. And again, I’m kind of making this up as a hypothetical here, but can you can you believe beyond a reasonable doubt that my client committed the crime when the only person, the only evidence you’ve seen is this one person who told you this story and you know that they lied about this, you know that they lied about that.

You know they have a motivation to lie. They have a reason why they want to tell this story about my client. And so therefore you cannot believe them.

01:18:02.500 — 01:18:08.020 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
So it’s not just facts and law. It’s essentially human psychology.

01:18:08.060 — 01:18:08.420 · Speaker 3
Oh yeah.

01:18:08.460 — 01:18:09.300 · Tim Parlatore
And theater.

01:18:09.300 — 01:18:10.060 · Speaker 3
It’s.

01:18:11.660 — 01:18:14.900 · Tim Parlatore
You’re an actor without a script.

01:18:15.820 — 01:19:16.790 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
But you have to think really fast. What if I mean, I’m assuming, but what I and I will be fair when I have a major problem, which I had. And again, this isn’t this is the joke. It’s not a major problem. But you were my first call, right? And that is as many. And by the way, this wasn’t legal trouble, this wasn’t anything legal.

But I just didn’t know what to do in this situation. And if anyone knows me, I’m happy to share it with you later because it’s just hilarious. But I’m not going to talk about it now. But it’s also about understanding. So when I call you and I think everybody calls you, you’re, um, which is the gist. Call Tim.

Tim will know what to do. Call Tim. But it’s understanding what the other person is doing. And so human nature is so erotic in 1 in 1 domain, and then the rest is very predictable depending on who you identify as that person. Correct. Is that do you think that that’s accurate?

01:19:16.830 — 01:19:17.230 · Speaker 3
Yes.

01:19:17.230 — 01:19:24.150 · Tim Parlatore
So much of what I do is about human psychology. Um, but not in a medical way. It’s about.

01:19:24.830 — 01:19:25.710 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Human nature.

01:19:25.750 — 01:19:26.070 · Speaker 3
Yeah, it’s.

01:19:26.070 — 01:19:31.520 · Tim Parlatore
About human nature. And and again, you have a jury of 12 people

01:19:32.760 — 01:19:38.920 · Tim Parlatore
all come from different backgrounds. All have different beliefs. How do I get them all to agree on something?

01:19:39.120 — 01:19:42.280 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Is there a way to do it? I mean, is there okay?

01:19:42.320 — 01:19:42.840 · Speaker 3
Of course.

01:19:42.920 — 01:19:43.800 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Is there?

01:19:43.840 — 01:19:45.400 · Speaker 3
It’s you.

01:19:45.440 — 01:19:48.520 · Tim Parlatore
You try cases differently depending on your jury panel.

01:19:48.560 — 01:20:00.520 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
But for example, like empathy is is it empathy? And also I’ve just aware that you never answer the question is how you compartmentalize into when the stakes are really high.

01:20:00.560 — 01:20:01.920 · Tim Parlatore
I presume that I do.

01:20:02.720 — 01:20:23.640 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
I mean, there’s no other way. If a war fighter or if a surgeon or if anyone got rattled, and probably there’s unconscious competence and you’re not going to be able to get the job done because the amygdala and everything else is firing. It’s noisy. It’s just not going to happen. So yes, I presume that you do compartmentalize.

01:20:23.640 — 01:20:28.320 · Tim Parlatore
It’s a lot easier for me now. Um, you know, it’s.

01:20:30.440 — 01:20:50.680 · Tim Parlatore
I don’t necessarily know that I’m good at compartmentalizing it because, you know, certainly it you know, my work does consume me. I do think about it all the time. I do come up with ideas for clients in the middle of the night and things like that. So I do not have one of those jobs where, you know, I leave work at the office.

01:20:51.360 — 01:20:52.240 · Speaker 3
Um, do.

01:20:52.240 — 01:21:02.760 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
You ever think, what if I don’t get this? So as opposed to, okay, I’m going to get this person off. Uh, one thing I’ve noticed about you is you’re actually pretty positive. Yeah. Um.

01:21:03.440 — 01:21:04.480 · Tim Parlatore
Eternal optimist.

01:21:04.520 — 01:21:04.760 · Speaker 3
Yes.

01:21:04.960 — 01:21:11.240 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
So that. But it’s very subtle. You would only know this if you talk to you. Um. So you’re aware of that?

01:21:11.280 — 01:21:11.920 · Speaker 3
Yeah.

01:21:13.200 — 01:21:13.800 · Speaker 3
So.

01:21:16.600 — 01:22:30.140 · Tim Parlatore
The the most important thing to me right now of how do I deal with all of this stuff is starting out every single morning by picking up heavy things. I need to go and get into the gym. I didn’t used to be like that. Um, I for many years practicing as a lawyer. I focused on just lawyering. I was very bad at the compartmentalization, and I ate, I drank, and I was a lot heavier than I am right now.

And I had a case several years back, and I had just bought myself a, uh, an Apple Watch. Um, I don’t wear it anymore, but I had an Apple Watch. It was the first time that I was in trial wearing an Apple Watch. And this was fascinating to me. Um, and scary because I’m sitting there and I’m listening to the prosecutor give his opening statement, and all of a sudden, my wrist starts buzzing, and I look at it and it’s flashing at me, and it’s saying, Your heart rate appears that you’re engaged in heavy exercise, and yet you don’t appear to be moving.

01:22:31.260 — 01:22:49.260 · Tim Parlatore
And that’s when I learned I needed to turn off the alerts on the watch so that the jury wouldn’t see that. Um, I later started wearing a, uh, a continuous glucose monitor, and so I could see that when I was in the courtroom, my heart rate would.

01:22:49.260 — 01:22:49.980 · Speaker 3
Spike.

01:22:50.340 — 01:22:50.779 · Tim Parlatore
High

01:22:52.140 — 01:22:57.380 · Tim Parlatore
161 80, my blood glucose would spike.

01:22:58.820 — 01:22:59.260 · Tim Parlatore
Uh,

01:23:01.100 — 01:23:01.939 · Tim Parlatore
and

01:23:03.020 — 01:23:04.420 · Tim Parlatore
you couldn’t see it.

01:23:04.580 — 01:23:05.580 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Did you feel it?

01:23:05.620 — 01:23:06.380 · Speaker 3
No.

01:23:06.860 — 01:23:16.259 · Tim Parlatore
I didn’t feel it. Nobody could see it. I looked perfectly calm. I looked perfectly composed. But inside

01:23:17.260 — 01:23:20.860 · Tim Parlatore
I was having that going on. Um,

01:23:22.540 — 01:23:46.910 · Tim Parlatore
when I got into shape and I got into, you know, hitting the gym every single morning. This most recent trial that I tried, I was still wearing the Apple Watch. I finally got rid of it because it bothered me too much with telling me every time I got a text message. Um, and so but, um, so I got rid of mental health reasons, not cardiac health reasons.

But

01:23:48.030 — 01:24:01.910 · Tim Parlatore
the most recent case that I tried, I woke up early. Every single morning. I went to the gym, I lifted weights, got a shower, put on the suit, went straight to the courthouse from the gym. And during that trial,

01:24:03.430 — 01:24:06.230 · Tim Parlatore
my heart rate never spiked at all.

01:24:06.750 — 01:24:11.670 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
That’s that’s very interesting. But your to be fair, also your diet is better.

01:24:11.830 — 01:24:12.150 · Speaker 3
Yes.

01:24:12.150 — 01:24:14.550 · Tim Parlatore
Oh everything is better than it was back then.

01:24:14.590 — 01:24:17.270 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Can we show before picture? Sure of you.

01:24:17.310 — 01:24:17.710 · Speaker 3
Sure.

01:24:17.750 — 01:24:24.720 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Because you are a patient of the practice. Yes. Um. And you’ve lost like 60, 70 pounds.

01:24:24.760 — 01:24:25.600 · Speaker 3
Correct.

01:24:26.760 — 01:24:27.360 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Um, we.

01:24:27.360 — 01:24:28.440 · Speaker 3
Were at the 15 to go.

01:24:28.920 — 01:24:38.680 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Uh, I think you’re doing really great. We, um. I was in the gym this morning, and Carlos was like, man. Tim’s a big dude. He’s like.

01:24:38.760 — 01:24:39.760 · Speaker 3
Used to be bigger.

01:24:39.840 — 01:24:46.760 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
No, but I mean, six foot. Yeah. Uh, you know, you’re six, six foot, six foot.

01:24:46.760 — 01:24:47.440 · Speaker 3
One six foot.

01:24:47.480 — 01:24:48.320 · Tim Parlatore
About 235.

01:24:48.360 — 01:24:48.600 · Speaker 3
Right now.

01:24:48.640 — 01:25:05.640 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
I mean, just a large presence. Uh, that would be really difficult. I can’t imagine you 70 pounds heavier. Also, having to think as fast as you do. Yeah. So you’re you’re fitter?

01:25:05.920 — 01:25:06.560 · Speaker 3
Yes.

01:25:07.360 — 01:25:11.520 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
I, I can’t say that you’re calmer because you. I didn’t know when you were 70 pounds heavier.

01:25:11.520 — 01:25:12.880 · Speaker 3
But I appear.

01:25:13.400 — 01:25:16.600 · Tim Parlatore
Just as calm. But internally I am calmer.

01:25:17.280 — 01:25:18.360 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Hey. That’s great.

01:25:18.400 — 01:25:19.320 · Speaker 3
I’m just not faking it.

01:25:19.520 — 01:25:45.410 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Okay. Well, um. Uh, that is that is extraordinary. And you found. Do you think that it was. It’s kind of like the disbursement of energy that you go, you train, and then you go to the, um, the courthouse. You think that it’s allowing you to, I don’t know, think better get out the frustration because you didn’t say that you were, um,

01:25:46.490 — 01:25:52.410 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
taken off your game when the the thing is alerting your. You’re like, oh, my heart rate’s 180.

01:25:52.490 — 01:25:54.210 · Tim Parlatore
Because I never noticed it before.

01:25:54.290 — 01:25:55.050 · Speaker 3
Yeah, it.

01:25:55.050 — 01:25:58.290 · Tim Parlatore
Had been doing it the whole time. I just never noticed it.

01:25:59.050 — 01:26:00.010 · Speaker 6
Have you ever.

01:26:00.010 — 01:26:13.370 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Gotten yourself in a position where you were you thought yourself, oh my gosh, what? Freaking out like me on Any given Tuesday. I’m just kidding. I don’t really freak out. Um, mostly.

01:26:13.890 — 01:26:14.570 · Tim Parlatore
Yes.

01:26:16.050 — 01:26:27.290 · Tim Parlatore
Uh, it was It was a very unique circumstance though, and I’ll tell you exactly what happened. So when I was representing Eddie Gallagher, um,

01:26:28.930 — 01:27:00.529 · Tim Parlatore
part of this was big news at the time. Part of it, you know, we haven’t really told this story. So, um, I had the prosecution tied up in knots. They were like, every move. I was always one move ahead of them, and they panicked. And in my opinion. And the prosecutor decided to cheat. Um, and so what he did was he got together with NCIS, and they hatched a plan to

01:27:01.890 — 01:27:08.050 · Tim Parlatore
attach a tracking beacon to my emails to try to spy on the defense’s emails.

01:27:09.290 — 01:27:10.890 · Tim Parlatore
Uh, totally illegal,

01:27:12.010 — 01:27:26.539 · Tim Parlatore
um, completely illegal. And so he did it and I, I got the email and because I had my settings up right, I recognized the tracking beacon instantly. And so I

01:27:27.820 — 01:27:45.700 · Tim Parlatore
immediately emailed them back and I said, hey, you might want to go check with your IT department because I see that you have an email tracking beacon on on this. I can’t imagine you would do something so unethical as to put a tracking beacon on an email to me. So why don’t you check to make sure that your system hasn’t been compromised?

01:27:46.740 — 01:27:47.460 · Tim Parlatore
Um,

01:27:48.700 — 01:27:57.100 · Tim Parlatore
I found out after the fact in discovery that he immediately forwarded that email to, uh, um, NCIS with the words, uh,

01:27:58.900 — 01:28:02.060 · Tim Parlatore
shoot. Uh, he found the beacon.

01:28:02.220 — 01:28:03.980 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Um, what is this?

01:28:05.420 — 01:28:08.380 · Tim Parlatore
Naval criminal investigative service? Um. And so.

01:28:11.100 — 01:28:24.670 · Tim Parlatore
All the other lawyers in the case thought I was nuts. Um, they thought, yeah, no, there’s no way that a prosecutor would actually do that. I can’t believe that. Um, and so. But I kept pushing on it. And then we had a.

01:28:25.150 — 01:28:34.870 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Did you just have a feeling it wasn’t just a feeling, it was something alerted you? Oh, yeah. So there wasn’t a moment where. Oh, you misinterpreted it?

01:28:34.910 — 01:28:46.350 · Tim Parlatore
It was. I knew what it was. I knew exactly what it was. And I was leaving it open to the possibility that somebody else had put it on there. But I knew exactly what it was. And so

01:28:47.390 — 01:28:58.229 · Tim Parlatore
I kept pushing it and pushing it. And then we got on to a conference call with the judge. Um, and the prosecutor said something that

01:28:59.710 — 01:29:13.680 · Tim Parlatore
caused all of our blood to run cold. He says, I am only authorized to state that an investigative step was taken in coordination with the US Attorney’s Office for the Southern District of California.

01:29:14.080 — 01:29:15.320 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
I don’t know what that means.

01:29:15.360 — 01:29:26.120 · Tim Parlatore
What it means is that he was a Navy prosecutor. And what he was saying is that he did something in coordination with the US Department of Justice.

01:29:27.160 — 01:29:30.520 · Tim Parlatore
That was a criminal investigation targeting me.

01:29:31.920 — 01:29:47.720 · Tim Parlatore
And so now I’m. I am under criminal investigation by the U.S. Department of Justice. That’s what he said. Mhm. You know, he didn’t say it in those words, but he said it in the words that somebody like me knows what it means. And

01:29:48.760 — 01:30:12.570 · Tim Parlatore
so we get off the phone and of course all the other attorneys on my, on my team who thought that I was crazy up to this point are now absolutely terrified because they realize we’re all under criminal investigation. So they’re all definitely freaking out. I went out into my back porch and I just sat there And, um,

01:30:14.050 — 01:30:23.370 · Tim Parlatore
yeah, my wife probably remembers this, uh, because I just sat there and I just needed a little bit of quiet, and I just needed to think. So.

01:30:25.410 — 01:30:29.209 · Tim Parlatore
I sat there for about 10 to 15 minutes

01:30:30.730 — 01:30:32.610 · Tim Parlatore
and, um,

01:30:33.770 — 01:30:53.850 · Tim Parlatore
and just just tried to quiet my mind. And then I looked at my phone and I saw, um, that the client’s wife, Andrea Gallagher, had just posted something on Instagram and it said, you know, that famous saying, you know, fate whispered to the warrior,

01:30:55.450 — 01:30:57.370 · Tim Parlatore
you cannot withstand the storm.

01:30:58.690 — 01:31:01.090 · Tim Parlatore
The warrior whispered back, I am the storm.

01:31:06.770 — 01:31:09.660 · Tim Parlatore
Okay, I know what to do now.

01:31:11.380 — 01:31:52.740 · Tim Parlatore
In that moment, I knew exactly what to do and I counter-attacked and I went straight to the head of the U.S. Attorney’s Office, the chief of the Criminal Division. I went straight to the chief judge at the Southern District, and I just started going at them to say, you know, if you’re doing this and just start, you know, showing why this was an illegal thing and you know what they did.

They said, we cannot confirm or deny the existence of any investigation, which is true. That’s what the DOJ policy is. They never admit or deny. It says but

01:31:53.860 — 01:32:30.820 · Tim Parlatore
and because I tied them up in a specific legal, ethical thing where if there was an existence of a conflict of interest, that would, you know, put me in conflict with my client, they would be required to disclose it. And he said, but we can disclose that we have not taken any part in the process in US v Gallagher.

And that was again, it wasn’t explicit, but it was enough to where between the lines I understood the message was this prosecutor lied, there is no criminal investigation.

01:32:34.220 — 01:32:40.259 · Tim Parlatore
And so at that point then it became much easier because at that point now, okay, now

01:32:41.380 — 01:32:47.260 · Tim Parlatore
there’s no hammer hanging over my head. This this was all fake.

01:32:49.860 — 01:33:26.150 · Tim Parlatore
So I could put that to the side. And now I can really go after this guy. And we went hard after him and he ended up getting removed from the case. He ended up getting forced Into into retirement. I think he should have gotten far worse than it, but it totally changed everything in the case at that point, because even at that point, even the, um, the case had gotten a lot of very Partizan coverage.

01:33:26.750 — 01:33:28.670 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Meaning both parties were covering it.

01:33:28.710 — 01:33:30.470 · Speaker 7
Yes, both parties were covering it.

01:33:30.470 — 01:33:34.190 · Tim Parlatore
And in different you know, everybody on the right was very.

01:33:34.190 — 01:33:35.190 · Speaker 7
Supportive of Eddie.

01:33:35.190 — 01:33:43.070 · Tim Parlatore
Everybody on the left was, you know, condemning him. But that was the moment of pure bipartisanship where they’re all everybody got together.

01:33:44.150 — 01:33:46.230 · Tim Parlatore
Like even the ACLU got on board with it.

01:33:46.230 — 01:33:46.670 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
And what’s.

01:33:46.670 — 01:33:59.750 · Tim Parlatore
That? Uh, the American Civil Liberties Union, uh, even they got on board with like, hey, prosecutors doing this is not, you know, is not appropriate. And so, um,

01:34:00.910 — 01:34:20.120 · Tim Parlatore
we had that kind of, you know, moment of, um, you know, rare bipartisan support. And then I took that into the courtroom and just steamrolled this guy and, you know, got the judge to list a whole bunch of things that this prosecutor had lied to him about.

01:34:20.200 — 01:34:21.320 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Did the judge know.

01:34:21.800 — 01:34:27.640 · Tim Parlatore
At that point? He did. He didn’t know. And then and I went into court and I was

01:34:28.920 — 01:34:55.040 · Tim Parlatore
very aggressive. And the judge, you know, judge actually told me afterwards, he said, you know, you came in there to him so aggressively that I was I couldn’t figure out why. I knew that there was something. And then there was a certain document that when I handed up and he actually saw it, and I could see it on his face, where it all of a sudden

01:34:56.240 — 01:35:28.610 · Tim Parlatore
he could understand the context. And he had he realized what this guy had actually done because it had been, you know, it was being presented in a different light and everything. Oh, no, nothing to see here. As soon as he saw that, he realized, oh, this guy lied to me about everything. And the and the judge’s demeanor changed like that.

And, you know, he had been a pretty pro prosecution judge. And all of a sudden, because he realized that the prosecutor had lied, he’s like, all right.

01:35:28.890 — 01:35:29.529 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Know

01:35:30.730 — 01:35:33.330 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
in law. Um.

01:35:36.770 — 01:35:45.129 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Is the upsetting part. So if we were to, you know, for someone who doesn’t understand, doesn’t know law, is it that

01:35:46.370 — 01:35:54.770 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
everything that the American system stands for was completely disregarded? And.

01:35:56.970 — 01:36:10.420 · Tim Parlatore
This is a common theme that I’ve had in a lot of my cases. My wife blames me for it, but I just. I have a high incidence of prosecutorial misconduct where the prosecutors cheat.

01:36:10.460 — 01:36:18.300 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
But it was something in that. Yeah. Was it because it was Eddie Gallagher’s life on the line, or was it something so egregious?

01:36:20.380 — 01:36:33.420 · Tim Parlatore
All of it. All of it. And, you know, so here’s here’s a common thing that I deal with and that’ll explain this, this particular point. Prosecutors they want to win.

01:36:34.460 — 01:37:03.740 · Tim Parlatore
Winning these cases is what gets them advanced in their careers is what gets them, um, you know, recognition and everything. And when I come in and threaten that and threaten their ability to win. Some of them are ethical and we’ll do the right thing and we’ll continue to play the case. Case cleanly. I’m frequently those prosecutors will end up dismissing the case because they recognize the problems.

01:37:05.820 — 01:37:16.340 · Tim Parlatore
Some of them are so afraid of losing and what the negative optics on their personal career would be of losing a case that they choose to double down and start cheating.

01:37:17.980 — 01:38:01.870 · Tim Parlatore
Um, and whenever they do that, because I’ve been doing this for a while, and I’ve gotten really good at catching them. When they do cheat, I catch them. And then I use that as as a bludgeon over the head to make things far worse for them and better for my client. Uh, and so but that is it’s something that’s happened a lot to me.

Um, partially because I do aggressively defend my client. And so it takes people that would otherwise be, you know, okay, we can just go through the motions to oh my God, I’m going to lose. Now I have to cheat. So, um.

01:38:02.950 — 01:38:48.510 · Tim Parlatore
And that’s what happened here. This prosecutor was afraid of losing. He had openly stated before the case that he believed winning this case was his key to getting promoted to captain and to becoming, you know, future admiral and stuff like that. And so, um, he wrapped up his future career prospects in winning this case.

And it was. And the ethical rules state that a prosecutor’s obligation is not to win. It is to seek justice. And a prosecutor has an ethical obligation to dismiss a case if they believe it is not supported by probable cause. Um, not to double down and hide evidence and cheat.

01:38:48.990 — 01:38:53.670 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
So can a prosecutor if they know someone is innocent.

01:38:53.680 — 01:38:54.240 · Tim Parlatore
Mhm.

01:38:54.920 — 01:38:55.640 · Speaker 6
They.

01:38:55.960 — 01:38:58.240 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Is it. Uh.

01:38:58.880 — 01:39:06.360 · Tim Parlatore
They don’t even have to know that they’re innocent. They just have to entertain serious doubts that they can prove the case.

01:39:07.560 — 01:39:15.640 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
And not only do they lie about evidence, but they came after you. Right. You personally. Correct.

01:39:16.760 — 01:39:20.600 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
In lawyer world, that is not is.

01:39:21.200 — 01:39:25.840 · Tim Parlatore
That’s not frequent. No, no. That that that doesn’t happen very frequently.

01:39:25.840 — 01:39:40.000 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Because when it does, I mean, it seems to me that what he was doing to you is and again, I am it’s almost like having a good surgeon’s license pulled right for,

01:39:41.080 — 01:39:47.760 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
um, no reason. Correct. Destroying someone’s life, their family, their reputation, their career.

01:39:47.840 — 01:39:48.400 · Tim Parlatore
Mhm.

01:39:48.760 — 01:39:51.159 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Is that the equivalent? Absolutely

01:39:53.090 — 01:39:54.010 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Horrific.

01:39:55.730 — 01:39:57.130 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Have you ever lost?

01:39:57.410 — 01:39:58.050 · Speaker 7
Sure.

01:39:58.450 — 01:39:59.330 · Tim Parlatore
Absolutely.

01:39:59.850 — 01:40:01.210 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
How do you deal with that?

01:40:06.090 — 01:40:08.050 · Tim Parlatore
By trying to find out how to.

01:40:09.170 — 01:40:11.610 · Tim Parlatore
How to fight the next piece of it.

01:40:11.810 — 01:40:13.450 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
But does it ever go away?

01:40:17.970 — 01:40:30.970 · Tim Parlatore
I think it depends on the case. Um, yeah. Have I lost cases that I believe that I should have won? Yes. Are there innocent people in jail that shouldn’t be there? Yes. Um.

01:40:34.050 — 01:41:03.380 · Tim Parlatore
Do I sit there and say, oh, I you know, I could have done this better. I could have done that better. It’s my fault. No, because I know that I did everything that I could. And as much as my wife may try to tell me, you know, you did the best you could. Uh, nobody could have won that case. Things like that. That doesn’t make it any better.

Uh, and so instead, what I try to do is I try to focus on, okay, how can we get this thing overturned? You know, what’s what’s the next step?

01:41:03.780 — 01:41:27.580 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
So you move very quickly on to the next step for improvement. Correct. Do you think over time, that is. Um, you know, I just think in comparison to, say, the warfighter, there’s just invisible wounds that these warfighters carry. Mhm. Do you think that that also carries over for mental warfare?

01:41:27.980 — 01:41:28.700 · Tim Parlatore
Yes.

01:41:31.820 — 01:41:58.270 · Tim Parlatore
My profession has a very high incidence of alcoholism substance abuse and suicide. Um, you know, it may not be as, you know, sexy as the whole 22 a day thing for veteran suicide. But, yes, there’s a high incidence of, uh, attorney, suicide, attorney, um, alcoholism, drug abuse. Um, and,

01:42:00.230 — 01:42:14.270 · Tim Parlatore
you know, I would say that, um, you know, having done the type of work that I’ve done, having heard the stories that I’ve heard and having fought the fights for these people, um,

01:42:15.310 — 01:43:11.030 · Tim Parlatore
you know, do, uh, there’s something called, uh, secondary trauma syndrome. Uh, which is similar but different from PTSD. Um, because you don’t actually suffer the trauma yourself. Um, but it’s something that, you know, like psychiatrists, psychologists and lawyers do, um, do suffer. And, you know, I take my client’s, uh, stories very, very personally and very internally.

There are there are lawyers out there that they will run a volume shop. And so like if you’re doing, you know, like anytime you’re out there on the Billboard one 800, DWI lawyer or whatever, um, those, those lawyers, they run a volume practice where it’s just tons of DWI, one after another.

01:43:12.110 — 01:43:32.310 · Tim Parlatore
And as one of these guys once told me, there are no new cases, only new faces, and they don’t even spend the time to really get to individually know the clients. They don’t need to because all DWI are really very similar to one another. Um, that’s not how I chose to make my practice. You know, lawyers.

01:43:35.030 — 01:43:47.600 · Tim Parlatore
There’s a couple of different business models that can be successful. You can either take a lot of cases at a lower rate and therefore spend a lot less time on each one and just run them as a volume

01:43:48.680 — 01:44:18.280 · Tim Parlatore
mill. Or you can take a lot less cases. You can charge a lot more for them and then really dive into each one, which is what I have chosen to do and what others have chosen to do. And so when you do that, you do get deeply involved in a case, um, you do get to know the family, uh, you get and, and that comes with both the highs and the lows because.

01:44:21.640 — 01:44:28.640 · Tim Parlatore
I get the texts on Thanksgiving from clients who say, you know,

01:44:30.120 — 01:44:49.690 · Tim Parlatore
I’m spending Thanksgiving with my family. Thanks to you, I am. They’ll send me pictures of their kids. You know, I have a few of them were there. Send me pictures of their kids, and they say, I am home with my family and I have a kid because you successfully got me home.

01:44:50.850 — 01:44:52.130 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
That must feel really good.

01:44:52.210 — 01:45:04.930 · Tim Parlatore
It does. It’s obviously, you know, tempered with the, you know, with the family members that will write to me and say, you know, my husband is still in.

01:45:07.010 — 01:45:08.450 · Tim Parlatore
Um, and,

01:45:09.610 — 01:45:15.330 · Tim Parlatore
you know, it’s it’s something that I’ve, I’ve tried to impress upon, um,

01:45:16.650 — 01:45:20.289 · Tim Parlatore
military commanders in particular because

01:45:22.210 — 01:45:28.610 · Tim Parlatore
not the highest stakes cases, smaller cases, administrative separations.

01:45:30.250 — 01:45:37.329 · Tim Parlatore
One of the things that bothers me in the military justice system is that frequently we are

01:45:38.610 — 01:45:45.540 · Tim Parlatore
picking a course of action based on the fact that the commander is angry at somebody as opposed to what is the right thing.

01:45:46.820 — 01:46:37.939 · Tim Parlatore
And so if a commander is angry at some service member because they did something dumb, they think, you know, this guy embarrassed me. And, you know, we’re just going to try and get the the stiffest punishment out of them. And, you know, the the military lawyers, the Jags, they’re trained to exactly that.

They you know, they go to school. They give them a fac pattern. They say what’s what are all the things we can do to this person. And so they will go so far out of their way into, you know, whatever incident happened. Oh, we’re going to get them an other than honorable discharge. We’re going to, you know, screw them.

You know, we’re going to make sure that their record looks so that they never get hired again and things like that, all because they’re angry at them, not because it’s what makes sense. And

01:46:39.430 — 01:46:52.150 · Tim Parlatore
You know, and I’ve, I’ve had that incident where I then tried to impress upon commanders like, hey, I know you’re mad at my guy. I know you want this, but here’s the thing.

01:46:53.590 — 01:47:10.110 · Tim Parlatore
You don’t know what I know. Because the moment that this case is done, he is off your books and you’re never going to hear from him again. And so you don’t know the human cost of what you’re doing here. I do, because I’ve represented these people.

01:47:10.150 — 01:47:11.590 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Do they listen? Can I.

01:47:11.590 — 01:47:11.990 · Speaker 5
Do.

01:47:12.150 — 01:47:43.960 · Tim Parlatore
Some do, some don’t. Because I tell them, like, you don’t get the call a year later, you don’t find out that the consequences of what you do here is what leads to that person. Becoming homeless is what leads to that person. Becoming a drug addict is what leads to that person committing suicide. I get those calls from the families.

You don’t. And it’s something that I think that we could talk a lot more about when we talk about 22 a day.

01:47:45.040 — 01:47:48.680 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Which for the listener or the viewers, suicide, correct?

01:47:48.720 — 01:48:27.600 · Tim Parlatore
I believe that a good portion of veteran suicide is avoidable because of the way that the commanders and the military treats people, particularly when they are separating them. Um, the Seal community is particularly bad at this. And this is a this is a something that the current Naval Special Warfare commander, I believe, is trying to fix, but something that traditionally they have been horrible with this because if they have somebody that they’re mad at, they don’t want to just kick them out.

No, they want to destroy them.

01:48:27.600 — 01:48:28.560 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Retribution.

01:48:28.760 — 01:48:45.480 · Tim Parlatore
Right. And the and the best retribution that they can come up with is a Trident review board. And so as they’re kicking them out, They will also remove their trident, their seal pen, and they’ll say, not only are you no longer on active duty, but you’re not one of us.

01:48:45.600 — 01:48:46.160 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Oh yeah.

01:48:46.160 — 01:49:13.799 · Tim Parlatore
And you’re never one of us. And so you get these guys with DD 214 that say that they deployed ten times, they have a, you know, they have Purple Hearts. They have, you know, Bronze stars. But it doesn’t say they were seal. And when they then get into trouble and they want to go to the Navy Seal Foundation and say, hey, I need help.

Navy Seal Foundation looks at their duty 214 and says, nope, you’re not one of us. And

01:49:15.160 — 01:49:22.560 · Tim Parlatore
when you look at the, you know, aggravating factors of PTSD that leads to a suicide, a feeling of abandonment.

01:49:22.600 — 01:49:23.520 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Oh, yeah.

01:49:23.560 — 01:49:31.760 · Tim Parlatore
Well, and a lot of these cases are dumb, you know, they’re not we’re not talking about like, you know,

01:49:33.000 — 01:49:37.570 · Tim Parlatore
you know, major felony cases. We’re often talking about a dumb alcohol incident.

01:49:38.010 — 01:49:39.330 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Or drugs or.

01:49:39.610 — 01:49:41.970 · Tim Parlatore
And and and so many of those cases.

01:49:42.010 — 01:49:43.730 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Not that drugs are dumb, but yeah.

01:49:43.770 — 01:49:44.890 · Tim Parlatore
No, but no.

01:49:45.490 — 01:49:48.690 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
It’s not homicide. It’s not xyzzy.

01:49:48.730 — 01:49:55.410 · Tim Parlatore
But here’s the thing is that a lot of those cases, if you really dig down into the root cause, why

01:49:56.570 — 01:50:10.330 · Tim Parlatore
did this operator decide to take drugs? Is it because they were self-medicating for something that happened to them overseas, that we failed to provide them proper treatment for?

01:50:10.370 — 01:50:12.610 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
It seems most of the time, yes, yes.

01:50:12.650 — 01:50:33.820 · Tim Parlatore
And so if they’re self-medicating for something that the service put them through, and then we punish them for that, and rather than getting them the help that they need, we actually change their discharge status to something where they’re not going to be able to even get that VA care for it.

01:50:35.540 — 01:50:38.900 · Tim Parlatore
Then what do you think is the natural conclusion of that?

01:50:42.940 — 01:50:54.700 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
I do believe with your voice and your advocacy that these guys are going to get better treatment because, you know, on the outside,

01:50:55.860 — 01:51:05.299 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
being a operator is very glamorous and this is what you see. Um, and it might be right, but

01:51:07.060 — 01:51:37.710 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
just as glamorous as the movies are. Again, in some ways is just as damaging and dark. And I and I don’t mean that in any. It’s part of the job. I, you know, I would say, um, but if one side of it can be very glamorous and, you know, all these accolades and parties, then you still have to address the underlying human right.

Um.

01:51:37.990 — 01:52:03.590 · Tim Parlatore
Other communities are not quite like that. You know, aviation, they have a very sophisticated process to take somebody’s pilot away from them. And they very rarely do it. And so if a seal and a pilot engage in the exact same conduct, they may both get separated from the military, but the seal is excommunicated, whereas the pilot still has his wings.

01:52:04.190 — 01:52:05.790 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Very excommunicated.

01:52:05.830 — 01:52:06.550 · Speaker 5
Right.

01:52:07.150 — 01:52:46.120 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Very excellent. Which brings me to, um, a last topic that I really want to get to. And that’s being able to perform under scrutiny and not just a little scrutiny, but you get a lot of scrutiny. And, um, you know, people will be like, oh, you have to be careful what you wish for. You hear these athletes that all of a sudden become famous, or the actor all of a sudden becomes famous.

But your level of scrutiny is different. Yeah. And I would say most people would be like, oh, no, hard pass.

01:52:47.360 — 01:52:51.360 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
How does one manage that?

01:52:54.720 — 01:53:38.090 · Tim Parlatore
Well, first of all, this is not one of those careful what you wish for things I chose this. Um, you know, when I went to law school, I wanted to be in the hottest fights. You know, I did not. I didn’t go to law school to just, you know, make money doing, you know, mergers and acquisitions and stuff like that. I wanted to be in the hottest and most intense fights.

And, uh, so I am grateful for it, because this is exactly where I wanted to be. This is exactly, you know, the level that I wanted to be at.

01:53:39.490 — 01:53:40.130 · Tim Parlatore
Um,

01:53:41.290 — 01:54:15.249 · Tim Parlatore
a lot of the I mean, a lot of the scrutiny, honestly, I’ve stopped reading most of the newspaper articles years ago because, you know, early in my career, it was amazing to me reading articles about my trials and realizing that the media is reporting something that I had just done in a courtroom that bore no resemblance to it.

It’s like there was just a room full of people. There was a court reporter that took a transcript of it, and you’re reporting something that completely didn’t happen. Um, so

01:54:16.370 — 01:54:31.369 · Tim Parlatore
I kind of I’ve largely stopped even, you know, reading a lot of those articles, um, because it’s, you know, I know people are gonna say whatever they want to say. And you know

01:54:32.850 — 01:54:54.370 · Tim Parlatore
something? Pete Hegseth always says to me whenever there’s, you know, one of these hit pieces out there. Uh, so he always says, you know, the hotter that gets, that’s an indicator that we’re right over the target. And if you’re not making a difference, if you’re not out there actually making an impact.

01:54:55.610 — 01:54:56.250 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
No one cares.

01:54:56.290 — 01:54:57.210 · Speaker 5
No one cares.

01:54:57.330 — 01:55:33.140 · Tim Parlatore
Exactly. So the more the more people are, you know, scrutinizing and attacking and everything, it just shows. It shows that I am doing what I need to be doing to make an impact and to to do the best that I can for my clients. I don’t lose any sleep over it because ultimately, again, USAID is the simplest example.

The more people that are angry at me for defending Eddie Gallagher, the more people that would send me nasty, threatening emails and all that kind of stuff.

01:55:35.900 — 01:55:39.500 · Tim Parlatore
I helped an innocent man go home to his family.

01:55:40.740 — 01:55:42.020 · Tim Parlatore
I sleep fine.

01:55:44.500 — 01:56:14.020 · Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Tim. Later. I am so honored to call you a friend. And you are the world’s strongest lawyer. Just go on record of saying that. But thank you for everything that you do for the community and for the people that you care about. It is so necessary. And if no one has thanked you today, let me be the one. Thank you so much.

01:56:14.180 — 01:56:14.940 · Speaker 5
Thank you.