by DND | Mar 22, 2023
Lose Weight Quickly and Effectively | Bill Campbell PhD
Dr. Bill Campbell is a Professor of Exercise Science and Director of the Performance and Physique Enhancement Laboratory at the University of South Florida. He received his Ph.D. in Exercise, Nutrition, and Preventive Health at Baylor University. Dr. Campbell has authored 3 books and over 200 scientific abstracts and manuscripts centered on the topics of sports nutrition, physique enhancement, and exercise performance. In recent years he has led pioneering research related to dietary protein intakes, rapid fat loss, and diet breaks for physique athletes and bodybuilders. In 2022 he launched 'Body by Science', a research review dedicated to helping people optimize their physiques within a maintainable lifestyle. Dr. Campbell is also a past President of the International Society of Sports Nutrition and an expert legal consultant for the dietary supplement industry.
In this episode we discuss:
– How to accurately measure your body fat.
– The best ways to lose weight.
– How much food and calories should you be eating?
– Why extreme dieting can actually increase your body fat.
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Dr. Bill Campbell, Dr Lyon
Dr Lyon (01:00:00 -> 01:00:38)
Welcome to another episode of the Dr Gabrielle Lion show. And today I have the absolute privilege to interview Dr Bill Campbell. He’s a professor of exercise science and Director of the Performance and Physique Enhancement Laboratory at the University of South Florida. Dr. Campbell has authored three books on sports nutrition and is also the author of over 200 scientific abstracts and manuscripts centered on the topics of sports, nutrition, physique, enhancement, and exercise, performance. Dr. Bill Campbell, thank you so much for taking time to talk all about your expertise.
Dr. Bill Campbell (01:00:39 -> 01:00:43)
Yes. Thank you very much for having me on here. I’m a little nervous actually.
Dr Lyon (01:00:44 -> 01:01:07)
Good. Then it’s gonna be great. What’s so amazing about you is you have a dedicated lab to physique enhancement and in the space of nutritional science and even bodybuilding that’s incredibly unique to have an entire lab at the University of South Florida on physique enhancement. So I would love for you to share a little bit about what that is and what you are doing.
Dr. Bill Campbell (01:01:07 -> 01:02:14)
Sure. So it’s when I was in grad school, I love bodybuilding. I love sports supplements. I love lifting weights. So I kinda had the idea. My lab needs to just be that, like, how can we optimize fat loss, build muscle? And I’ve been blessed to be able to do that. So I’ve been at the University of South Florida for 15 years. I have an outstanding research team. My research team is a bunch of volunteer students, master students, undergraduate students. And what you just said is true. We focused solely on fat loss and maintaining muscle if you’re, if you’re on a diet or in a fat loss phase or building muscle. And again, we use resistance training to that end. There’s usually some type of protein intake, optimal protein intake with that and sometimes dietary supplements as well. So that’s the focus and I’ve, I’ve managed to not go after money or other things that, that does tend to side track a lot of researchers.
Dr Lyon (01:02:15 -> 01:02:54)
What’s so unique about you is that you haven’t chased any other shiny objects. You’ve really focused the last 15 years on physique enhancement. And from my perspective, that is fat loss, we’re gonna talk all about fat loss. In this episode, we’re also gonna talk about muscle hypertrophy re composition and exactly what you had mentioned, supplements starting with fat loss. And by the way, your laboratory takes really good to great whatever that means in terms of fat loss, the average participant in your laboratory because of course, you’re doing the science of what’s gonna work. What body fat percentage do. You typically start with,
Dr. Bill Campbell (01:02:55 -> 01:04:12)
it depends on the population. So we’ve, we’ve never in my lab. Currently, we’ve never had a study on overweight or an obese population. Now, I did do that work in grad school. So typically, if you, if you, there’s two types of people that I think are drawn to the type of research we do and this describes the, the subjects that we get. We have our competitive bodybuilders. So we’ve done multiple case studies, case series studies. We’ve just finished a, a um a survey study on bodybuilding. So that’s one aspect. Then the other one which is, I would say it’s where my, my pure passion lies and it describes somebody like myself. It’s the lifestyle bodybuilder. It’s somebody that has no intention of stepping on a competitive stage but is dedicated and takes serious their training and their nutrition programming. So what I like to say is that the research that I do helps people optimize their physiques within a maintainable lifestyle. And again, bodybuilders can, can get benefit from this and get value from this as well as the serious fitness enthusiast. And that second group is, tends to be the subjects that we study.
Dr Lyon (01:04:12 -> 01:04:13)
And what age are those groups,
Dr. Bill Campbell (01:04:14 -> 01:04:35)
almost always college aged. Um Sometimes we get a little bit older than the traditional college age, but it’s what you would call a convenient sample since I work at a university. So they tend to be young, tend to be healthy. And again, bodybuilding focused or at least very serious about how they go about their exercise and nutrition
Dr Lyon (01:04:36 -> 01:04:47)
that is really helpful. And I’m sure that you’re gonna have a lot of people who want to sign up, by the way, you have to live in Florida to be part participant of your research studies. Um, I’m assuming that’s true. Right.
Dr. Bill Campbell (01:04:47 -> 01:05:48)
Well, it has been true. But we’re looking at next year, so, next fall. So, um, I guess this year we’re looking at designing a study that would be more virtual. So the only thing that’s held me back so far with, with doing that is I just don’t have home based scales that I trust to be able to, to say yes, this is exactly why I don’t have validity in these bathroom scales in terms of how much body fat is lost. So you have two options. One you live with that, which as a scientist, you can’t, you have to feel good about the data that you’re generating or to, you send everybody out to get a dexa or some type of standardized research lab based body composition assessment. So we’re, we’re really putting our minds together and for the first time, at least that we’re trending in that direction. So then anybody, as long as you, you know, can have access to a weight room, you would be able to potentially be a subject in our study.
Dr Lyon (01:05:49 -> 01:05:54)
That’s fascinating. Let’s just jump right into number one. How do we measure body fat?
Dr. Bill Campbell (01:05:56 -> 01:07:28)
So there’s several different ways I like to categorize them as laboratory based and field based. So laboratory based think of dexa, think expensive. So Dexa bod pod years ago, underwater weighing and think of field based. That would be more your handheld B I A device, skin folds. And then I actually use in my lab, something that’s, that can be both. So we use ultrasound, it’s A mode ultrasound. So it’s small enough and portable enough that I can actually go to subjects, but we don’t do that. So we use it in my lab and what I love about ultrasound, it literally tells you the thickness of the body fat. So if you think of dexa or bod pod, all of those fancy and again, I’ve used them, they’re great, but they’re not actually telling you how much they’re not measuring body fat, they’re measuring your, your volume of air that you’re that you are dispensing in a pod pod dexa is technically measuring pixels on a screen based on the density of your body ultrasounds, literally measuring the thickness of your body fat. So our skin folds to that matter, skin folds are measuring the thickness of the fold of a skin which contains subcutaneous fat. So we also use skin folds in my lab. So my labs, body fat assessments are very practical and I think the best for the population that I serve.
Dr Lyon (01:07:29 -> 01:07:54)
I think, I think that that is amazing and probably very valuable for the listener at home because they’re often times wondering, well, how accurate are these scales? How can I measure my own body fat? And what does it mean? What is the percent difference of what it says and what it actually is in terms of um ultrasound, you mentioned measuring body fat. What about muscle, skeletal muscle?
Dr. Bill Campbell (01:07:55 -> 01:08:29)
Yes. So the device that I use, does that not at a great level? I use an A mode ultrasound, which I guess the best way to find that it’s awesome for body fat, but it’s not of a high enough quality often for many of the muscle groups to get to the density or the depth that you would need. So if you think of a B mode ultrasound, so anybody that’s been pregnant when they’re trying to figure out if their child’s a boy or girl, they’re going in and using a B mode ultrasound. And that’s what we use in, in my program. I know, you know, Dr Sam Buckner.
Dr Lyon (01:08:30 -> 01:08:31)
I know I was just thinking that.
Dr. Bill Campbell (01:08:31 -> 01:09:05)
So he’s, first of all, he’s a great scientist. First of all, second of all, he’s like a savant with a B mode. Ultrasound, so well trained and he’s like our muscle guy. So that’s what you would. So ultrasound can use both um B mode is what you would want if you’re really focused on muscle thickness. A mode can do that. But again, it’s, it’s, it’s oftentimes not sensitive enough for the fastest lateralus the larger muscles I would feel good using it for biceps. I have used it for biceps. But past that, I would not
Dr Lyon (01:09:05 -> 01:09:17)
overall. How do you feel in terms of the way in which body composition is measured? Measured? Do you feel like we’re doing it at uh adequately? Do you feel like that? There’s a long way that we can go.
Dr. Bill Campbell (01:09:18 -> 01:10:04)
The most important thing is, well, let me, let me back up if somebody wants to get their body fat tested, just make sure that you’re doing it under standard conditions. So what I mean by that is you should do it first thing in the morning before you’ve eaten, you should ideally not have exercised the day prior. Make sure your diet is consistent. So as long as you are consistent with your methods, so early in the morning before you’ve eaten anything, ideally not exercising the day prior. And why that, because that really can shift your hydration levels. And for most types of assessments, hydration levels will impact how much lean mass that the, that the device will register. One thing I don’t. Oh, go ahead.
Dr Lyon (01:10:04 -> 01:10:07)
No, no, you go ahead. I was just going to ask you to clarify.
Dr. Bill Campbell (01:10:07 -> 01:11:16)
Yeah. So I see, um, some fitness centers they’ll say, hey, come in and, uh, we’ll do a B A or whatever assessment they’re going to use and they have no concern about the time of day. So one time you go in, let’s say January 2nd you set your, your goals up and you go after lunch. Well, what happened? Well, you probably one, you might have had a lot of alcohol. You’ve had a lot of food. You didn’t go in the morning and you get your assessment again after lunch on January 2nd, then you’re gonna go in every three months. Well, maybe the next time somebody goes in first thing in the morning They did exercise the day prior. So you can see there’s no standard for how they went about testing this. So you want to keep as many things the same as you can. And to that end, I think most devices, as long as, as long as they can detect changes in your body fat, that’s what we really care about. If your, if, let’s just say a true value are true. Body fat percentage is 20%. But a machine says you’re 22, that doesn’t bother me too much if it’s not exactly accurate. But can that machine detect when you’ve lost body fat or gain body fat?
Dr Lyon (01:11:17 -> 01:11:24)
Well, let’s talk about body fat. What are the top ways in which actually people can lose body fat?
Dr. Bill Campbell (01:11:25 -> 01:13:39)
There’s generally two broad categories and I would say both are outstanding for change for reducing body fat levels. One is diet and when I, when I define the word diet, let’s just say eating in a caloric deficit and then the other one is exercise and typically that what I mean, by that is aerobic exercise. That doesn’t mean that resistance training is, is not effective for, for body fat loss is, in fact, if you want to change your body, resistance exercise is the best mode. But I live in the world and I think it’s the world that you live in. I don’t like using resistance exercise as a fat loss phase. My, the way that I view things your whole life, you’re going to be resistance training. Let’s just live in utopia for a minute. Your resistance training is, is an anabolic stimulus on your body. Use it for that purpose. When people start to use resistance training to lose fat, It starts to put them in, they start getting tempted to do some things with their training programs that are not optimal for building or maintaining muscle. So resistance exercises just a staple. You’re, you’re gonna resistance training today, next week, for five years, for 10 years. If your goal is to lose body fat, I think a great addition to that is aerobic exercise. And then if you just want the best combination, you have a diet and caloric deficit, you’re already resistance training. And then you add in more aerobic exercise than what you typically do for a period of time. That is the, it’s, it’s very well established in the scientific literature and it’s, it’s that combination, by the way, resistance exercise, a little bit of added aerobic and a caloric deficit that not only causes fat loss, but it enables you to maintain your muscle mass, which is hugely important when dieting because it helps you maintain your weight loss and allows you to keep losing fat for longer periods of time.
Dr Lyon (01:13:40 -> 01:13:44)
What if an individual is not doing any aerobic exercise? Where would you start
Dr. Bill Campbell (01:13:45 -> 01:14:54)
I would start with a caloric deficit. And I, I think this is just my opinion if I had to have somebody, um, they come to me and they say I want to lose body fat, I would start them on a caloric deficit. I think more people are able to eat fewer calories than they are willing to start an exercise program and maintain it. If you’re currently sedentary, that’s a big ask to start exercising. So both are effective. I personally, for a client that’s currently sedentary, I would start with a diet, a caloric deficit. And as they get comfortable with that add in some walking step goals. And then as they start to show me positive success in what they’re doing, I start adding in additional cardiovascular, which I know we’re focused on fat loss. But the, the other health benefits are just unbelievable. Like, you I, I live in the world of fat loss, but I sneak in health in the back door and a lot of people don’t even realize it.
Dr Lyon (01:14:54 -> 01:15:43)
That’s really smart. I wanna just take a moment to really highlight what you’re talking about 100% of the people have to eat, they have to get nutrients. You literally could go your entire life without exercising one day. I mean, it doesn’t mean that that’s healthy. But the reality is even if exercise were to be a bigger stimulus to metabolic homeostasis, 23% of individuals are meeting their daily activity requirements of both cardiovascular and resistance training. However, most everybody is getting some nutrients have to eat. So that, that makes a lot of sense. So, after you, well, before we move on to a caloric deficit, how do you determine their maintenance calories? And then what percent do you actually reduce their calories by to determine a caloric deficit?
Dr. Bill Campbell (01:15:43 -> 01:19:14)
Yes. So now you, you’ve asked a very question I love because my lab has been very focused on this. What’s the extent of the caloric deficit? So, first of all, there’s two ways to determine your maintenance calories and let’s define maintenance calories, maintenance calories is your normal amount of food that you’re eating, whereby you’re not gaining weight or losing weight. So you’re maintaining your weight with the normal amount of calories that you’re bringing in. And it’s important that we have that knowledge because then we want, we can dial in how many calories we need to reduce that you’re getting in a day. So there’s two ways to estimate how many, what your maintenance calories are. Um, I’ll go with the quick method and then I’ll go with the my, I’ll call my preferred method, which is what we do in, in my lab’s research. The quick method is to use one of these metabolic rate estimation equations. So some people may have heard of Harris Benedict equation, the Cunningham equation, DeLorenzo. So that estimates what your resting metabolic rate is, which is about 70% of the total calories that you’re expending. What you do is once you have that again, all you need is your height, your weight, your sex, and some, some of them, your age and you’ll be able to get relatively close to your caloric, your resting metabolic rate. Then you take that and you multiply it by an activity factor That activity factor is dependent upon how active you are. If you’re sedentary, we usually say about 1.2, A multiplier your resting metabolic rate by 1.2, if you’re moderately active, 1.55. So that method is quick, right? You don’t have to go anywhere. You just have to know your, your personal demographics and an estimation of, of how active you are and that will get close to your maintenance calories. So very quick. And a lot of researchers use that method. The other method takes a little more effort. But I love the second method that I’m gonna explain because it’s very educational. So what we do is we have our subjects um track all of their food for a two week period. So a minimum of 14 days and we instruct them when they’re doing this, do not change anything about how you eat. It has to be your normal food intake. And then the second thing we have them do is weigh themselves every single morning during these two weeks. And if they find out that they’re not gaining weight or losing weight, then we have identified their maintenance calories over that two week average. Now, you, I always like to explain it like this, that second approach. Yes, it takes longer. But what, where is, where is that number coming from? Where’s the maintenance calories coming from? It’s coming from the actual subjects, body weight and their own food intake. The quick method is coming from an equation that some demographics went into of the, of the person and it went into and the other thing that went into that was an estimated activity factor. So it’s not as precise as the, as the way that I prefer, which is a little more complex. Takes a little more time, but I’m convinced that you get a much closer true maintenance calorie level.
Dr Lyon (01:19:14 -> 01:19:18)
Mhm. And then where do they go from there in terms of weight loss?
Dr. Bill Campbell (01:19:19 -> 01:21:33)
So that, that’s where again, my, my lab has been very focused on how much of a caloric deficit. So let’s, let’s use 2000 calories as an example, if your maintenance calories 2000 calories per day and again, let’s define that on average, you’re eating 2000 calories, you’re not gaining weight and you’re not losing weight, not gaining fat, not losing fat. We need to have some type of intake that’s less than that. But what’s ideal? Well, if you get it too low now we’re going to increase hunger more than what we would want to. If it gets too low, we’re going to sacrifice some muscle mass and we definitely don’t want that. And we are significantly increasing a rebound effect. A some people call it a fat overshoot effect where yeah, I can, I can eat, I can go on a crash diet for a few weeks. But as soon as that’s over, your body is now primed to increase body fat deposition after that period. Now, on the other extreme or the other end of the equation, we don’t want to just reduce a little bit because reducing a little bit may cause an elevated hunger. And also people can get discouraged if they’re not seeing body fat being lost. So what’s the sweet spot? And here’s what we’ve been able to find. And this is through approximately about 5 to 6 studies in my lab. What we’ve been able to do is say that a 25% caloric deficit. So 25% lower than your maintenance calories. So that would be for somebody who has a 2000 calorie maintenance level. If they can go to 1500 calories on average, what that does is two things, it causes significant losses of body fat and it allows for the maintenance of their muscle mass, their lean mass stores. Now, one other assumption with that is we do and we assume that protein is adequate and we assume that their resistance training. So if those two things are in play, 25% really, at least in, in, in our reports, 100% of the weight loss is coming from fat stores. Typically
Dr Lyon (01:21:35 -> 01:22:02)
that’s really important to point out because most individuals who yo yo diet end up losing a percentage of fat. Yes, but also over a period of time, each cycle loses skeletal mass, which is a major problem. You mentioned this fat overshoot effect. Why when an individual crash diets, why would they not then be able to say go through a period where they’re really, I don’t know, putting on muscle. Why does the majority of that tend to be fat after?
Dr. Bill Campbell (01:22:03 -> 01:24:08)
Yeah. And I don’t know if we have an answer as to why. But we have seen this in a few studies. Um One of the most famous was the Minnesota Starvation experiment. And when we see this fat overshoot phenomenon and let’s, let’s let me explain what that is a fat overshoot phenomenon is where you start a diet. And you, you have, let’s just say you have £100 of body fat on your, on your body and you’re losing weight, but you’re being too aggressive, your crash dieting, um, eating, you know, 50% caloric reduction. Yes, you lose body fat. Yes, you’re gonna lose lean mass. And then when the diets over within a few weeks, period of time. So says the research you now have more body fat on your body than what you started with. So if you started with 100 within maybe eight weeks after your diet ended, you may not have 110, 120 pounds of body fat. And there’s a couple of theories as to what causes this. And again, everything is theoretical at this point. The, the data that’s most intriguing to me is that your body’s hunger is tied to your lean mass and to an extent your resting metabolic rate. And that when you’re going, those types of diets and you lose lean mass, what you’ve done is you’ve primed your body to increase body fat levels. And the reason that this happens is your body will tend to gain weight until you can put back on the amount of muscle mass that you had when you started your diet. So my whole lab’s focus is let’s protect our lean mass from day one. Do not put ourselves in a situation where this is going to be an environment that we’re going to induce with aggressive dieting. And now I’ll just, I’ll say the things that are obvious to you and I, but maybe not to everybody, you you protect your muscle by eating optimal protein and resistance exercise. And if not resistance exercise, any even aerobic exercise helps protect and maintain muscle mass. When dieting,
Dr Lyon (01:24:09 -> 01:24:11)
when you say optimal protein, can you define that for us?
Dr. Bill Campbell (01:24:11 -> 01:25:46)
Yeah, I, I tend to say, and again, this is from, from my lab’s research and just my reading of other people’s research, not less than 1.6 g per kg of body weight or about 0.75 g per pound. So for somebody who would struggle with getting that much, I would say, just can I help you get more protein than what you otherwise would without my help. It doesn’t again, we put a floor in our research studies. It has to be no less than 1.6. But I understand that not everybody can do that. Now, dietary supplements can help with that. Um getting educated about food sources can help with that, But more protein is better than less protein. Even if you don’t hit Dr. Campbell’s floor, you know, my threshold and I would say that that is, that is the lowest amount I typically will encourage people to get up to a gram of protein per pound of body weight. When dieting, that’s for international audience, that’s 2.2 g per kg. Um And then some other benefits with that, which are huge is your hunger levels tend to be less. Uh Not all research has reported that increasing protein will help with hunger but a lot of research has and there’s no, I’ve never read a study where elevating protein intake is a cause for increasing hunger. It either has no effect or it suppresses your hunger when dieting.
Dr Lyon (01:25:46 -> 01:26:17)
Mhm. In terms of if an individual is um reducing their caloric intake by 25% because they’re focused on fat loss. And they’re goal is to your floor is 1.6 g per K per kg, which ends up being 0.7 g per pound. At your very baseline recommendation. The um more ideal number that you’re saying is one g per pound. Is it ideal body weight or um current body weight?
Dr. Bill Campbell (01:26:17 -> 01:26:56)
So, in, in my subjects, its current body weight. If the advice that I give is if you’re currently obese, if you’re somebody with obesity or you, you’re someone that’s overweight, then it makes sense to use your goal weight to estimate your protein intake because the protein intake can get very difficult if you’re, if you’re an individual with obesity using current body weight guidelines for that. So again, anybody who is not obese, use your current body weight, if you’re someone with obesity, what is your goal weight and base your protein intake on that
Dr Lyon (01:26:57 -> 01:26:59)
And then what’s the next macro that you turn to?
Dr. Bill Campbell (01:27:00 -> 01:27:04)
My research would suggest it doesn’t matter.
Dr Lyon (01:27:04 -> 01:27:08)
I would agree with your research. It doesn’t matter. It’s a personal preference.
Dr. Bill Campbell (01:27:09 -> 01:27:32)
Yes. The only advice I would give is avoid the extremes. Avoid very low carbohydrate diets, avoid very low fat diets. But, yeah, that’s the beautiful thing here. If you can just, if you’re focused on calories, focus on protein preference and who doesn’t want to live their life, living it in accordance with our preferences. I know I do.
Dr Lyon (01:27:33 -> 01:27:52)
What about protein distribution? I know that in the literature, especially with younger individuals or perhaps college age would suggest that protein distribution in the way that we think about it for an aging individual doesn’t really matter how does protein distribution um kind of come out in your lab.
Dr. Bill Campbell (01:27:52 -> 01:30:38)
So this is not research that I’ve done specifically in my lab, but I have studied this from other people doing this kind of work and I’ll just, I’ll give a little bit of background. Um up until about two years ago, I was aware of two studies that were done at the cellular level. So they were looking at muscle protein synthesis responses with different amounts of protein distribution. So what if you compressed all of your protein over four hours or eight hours or if it, you know, was more distributed over the entire day? And both of those cellular data trials reported that it seemed better if they were more spread out, but we had no data in humans since that time. What we, I found a study in bodybuilders. I think this was an Italian study where they compared a protein skewing approach. So these male bodybuilders had very low protein for breakfast, a moderate amount for lunch and then a biggest dose for dinner. And what they compared that to was some, another group of male bodybuilders where it was more evenly distributed with breakfast, lunch dinner. And at the end of the study, I think was an eight week study, there was a significant difference in the lean mass that was gained when the protein was more equally distributed. So taking the cellular data, taking that one study. So this is not, you know, this is not 15 studies that I’m relying on. But I would also say my, my common sense would tell me it makes sense to distribute your protein. And, and I view protein as an anabolic stimulus to the body protein builds muscle. So especially when dieting, I want anabolic stimuli throughout the day. And I get that with protein feedings and ideally resistance training. Now let me just give another context to this. If somebody’s primary goal is fat loss and they do better with a time restricted feeding approach, I would say okay if your goal is fat loss and you’re gonna be able to adhere to your diet with a time restricted feeding window of eight hours, I I would, I would support that and I would say okay, that’s best for you. But if we’re gonna be honest, just know that you are leaving, you are likely leaving a little bit of your lean mass on the table, then you wouldn’t that you would otherwise not be doing if you could distribute it approximately even throughout the, your waking hours.
Dr Lyon (01:30:39 -> 01:30:51)
You said lean mass and lean mass could be liver, gut, all kinds of things. Would you also say skeletal muscle or were you very careful to say lean mass?
Dr. Bill Campbell (01:30:51 -> 01:30:55)
Yeah, this is where you can get very nerdy with terms.
Dr Lyon (01:30:55 -> 01:30:57)
I just, I’m just curious.
Dr. Bill Campbell (01:30:57 -> 01:31:52)
Yeah, I say lean mass and I mean, muscle mass now muscle mass is less of a scientific term. So in the scientific literature, you’re typically gonna read fat free mass or lean body mass, lean mass covers both of those. And you’re right. Um Lean mass is not just skeletal muscle, but the way that I described this is if I’m going on a caloric deficit or a diet or even a bulk face, if I’m trying to build muscle, I’m really not anticipating my heart, liver kidneys to change much the changes that I’m going to experience. At least the way that we conduct our research where we’re targeting skeletal muscle, those changes are going to be reflective of skeletal muscle changes. So when I say lean mass, I’m, I’m focusing on skeletal muscle.
Dr Lyon (01:31:53 -> 01:32:03)
Mm, that’s helpful. You know, eventually I think, um I don’t know, have you seen any of the work from William Evans? He’s talking about you, have you seen him? He’s talking,
Dr. Bill Campbell (01:32:03 -> 01:32:09)
I know of his work. I know he’s done some of the best NASA research. But tell me what work you’re familiar with
Dr Lyon (01:32:09 -> 01:33:17)
well, he’s uh, trying to bring ways in which we can actually measure only skeletal muscle by tagging creatine And looking at in urine Yeah. A D three creatine. Yeah. So we’ll see. Maybe really, I know, I think it’s just important to really highlight that we don’t necessarily do a great job, not me and you, but they, um, the way in which we’re measuring muscle, it’s very difficult to see quality. It’s very difficult to see quantity if we were to even get granular about it. So I just think that it’s a, it’s interesting because again, lean mass typically includes everything and, and yes, what you’re saying is right. It would typically be uh they change in skeletal muscle mass. Yes. And then I think as we age, you know, what does that look like? Because, you know, will it still be mostly muscle mass as it relates to lean mass or, or other organs? So, just a, just an idea.
Dr. Bill Campbell (01:33:17 -> 01:33:28)
Yeah. And then again, not my expertise, but how, how functional is that lean mass as we age and what’s the quality of that muscle mass? So, very important questions.
Dr Lyon (01:33:28 -> 01:33:59)
Eventually, I’m hoping that we’ll all get there that we’ll all end up shifting the conversation for fat loss. Basically. Number one, we said, figure out your maintenance calories, then go to a 24% calorie deficit, prioritizing dietary protein, whatever your leftover calories are you don’t really care if it’s fat or carbohydrates. As long as it’s not necessarily in the extremes, how fast should someone expect to lose body fat.
Dr. Bill Campbell (01:34:01 -> 01:35:43)
So, a, a good gauge is depending on what method you’re using. Let’s assume they’re all equal for the context of our conversation. A 1% loss of body fat per month is a very good rate of fat loss. And a word of warning here to anybody who’s taking my advice. Be careful that you don’t use the scale, just your body weight to gauge your progress because you will be disappointed one, you’ll be disappointed anyway, because nobody loses body fat as fast as we want. I’m a fat loss researcher and every time I try to lose fat, I’m thinking this is not fast enough like I get disappointed and I know how I know the process. But if you only look at the scale weight, you’re going to fail to appreciate that you are going to maintain your lean muscle mass. And in fact, you may actually gain some and you will be losing body fat. But so if you gain lean mass and you lose body fat and you look at the scale that doesn’t change, you will be there. This isn’t working to the contrary. It’s working beautifully. You are changing your body. It’s just that the scale is not picking up the change in your body composition. So if you can, I always encourage people get a body composition assessment because that will give you a more clear picture of what’s actually happening. The scale number is not good for those of us that are prioritizing protein and resistance training. When we’re dieting, it will, it will it is not the best way to gauge progress.
Dr Lyon (01:35:43 -> 01:35:58)
There is something called that set point theory. I don’t know if it’s been completely dispelled. But do you find that individuals who have maintained a certain body fat percentage and weight for a long period of time Their body likes to be at that certain body fat and weight.
Dr. Bill Campbell (01:35:59 -> 01:37:41)
Yeah, I’m still trying to have an informed opinion on the body set that, um, theory, um, I’ll say something that I’ve observed, I’ve assessed thousands, if not 10,000 resting metabolic rates in people done it for my entire career. And almost always when I measure somebody’s resting metabolic rate. And I can tell you a lot of people come to my lab and they think they have a slow metabolism. They do not. It’s very rare that a measured metabolic rate is actually slow. But when I have seen it and I can, I’ve seen it on one hand, it is always been in people who were formerly obese and I don’t have an answer as to why. But, um, it got to the point where as I, even now as I see these, if I saw somebody come in and we measured their resting energy, they’re resting metabolic rate and it’s low. That’s my first question. Did you lose a significant amount of body weight recently or over the course of your life? Um So again, that’s not necessarily the set point theory, but it does suggest that if you were formerly obese or are obese, your metabolism may not re your metabolism may not be optimized. And again, if you have a lower resting metabolic rate, that means you essentially, you can’t eat as many calories without gaining body fat. So that’s what I’ve observed. And I just need to do more reading on the set point theory.
Dr Lyon (01:37:41 -> 01:38:03)
That’s very hopeful for people because now if they feel that they have a quote slow metabolism and perhaps they haven’t struggled with weight, then they may not, they may not just be tracking appropriately or adding enough aerobic and resistance training. All of which I think are really important. How long do you suggest individuals go into a caloric deficit for?
Dr. Bill Campbell (01:38:03 -> 01:38:08)
Oh, so now you’re talking about another favorite topic of mine.
Dr Lyon (01:38:08 -> 01:38:08)
I love your favorite topics
Dr. Bill Campbell (01:38:10 -> 01:41:35)
This is the, this is the hour of my passion here. Um So we have some data on this concept known as diet breaks. The more complicated version is called nonlinear dieting. But essentially that says it may not always be the best practice to go on a diet and stay dieting for month after month after month. We it may be better to break that up and go back to maintenance calories for a week or two weeks. And what that does is to that, remember earlier, I was saying that dieting is a cata bolic environment, protein and resistance exercise allow us to impute anabolic stimuli into this diet. Well, so does a diet break. Now, if you go back to maintenance calories, maybe it’s not anabolic, but at least we’re no longer in a cata bolic environment. And one reason I really like diet breaks, we’re gonna have a paper published in the next few weeks in on diet breaks and resistance trained females. But again, I, I like to serve people who are uh lifestyle body builders or just people who are fitness enthusiasts and a lot of people just speak for myself if I’m going on vacation and I’m in a fat loss phase. I don’t want to diet when I’m on vacation. I don’t really want to diet over the holidays. So the just fitting a diet break into your lifestyle when you don’t want to diet I think it has a huge psychological benefit. And earlier, we talked about fat overshoot in every one of those scenarios where we’ve observed, observed it in the scientific literature. The diets had not only been severe in terms of the caloric deficits, they were also elongated. So they were done for fairly long periods of time. So how long should somebody diet? Um that, that’s hard to say. Um One thing that I, that I do when I work with people is once you start to adapt to your caloric deficit and you’re no longer losing body fat. That’s one of the strategies that, that we, that we will typically use will say, okay, you’re going to take a break for the next week or two weeks, you’re gonna go back to maintenance calories. Now, that doesn’t mean that you can eat whatever you want or that you’re eating in a caloric surplus just means we’re taking a break from the diet. And, and in theory, then when we come back to the diet, your body is more sensitive to the caloric deficit when we go back on the diet and often times we will see an actual loss of body fat where we were struggling with that because of, you know, not taking any breaks. Now, the research literature doesn’t, does not report that consistently. Um One famous study called the Matador study. Really good results in obese males ma the study that we’re gonna have published here in the next couple of weeks, we didn’t see a benefit with diet breaks and resistance trained females. But there was no, there was no, there was nothing for the diet break to fix is what we suggested. Meaning that they weren’t dieting for a long period of time. They were resistance training, they had high protein intake. So the diet break wasn’t really useful in, in helping because they were already doing so many other beneficial things with their diets.
Dr Lyon (01:41:35 -> 01:42:11)
You know, what about, um, you know, confounding variables? I saw one of your posts and instagram, which by the way, I love your instagram and it talked about an individual who slept four hours a night would put on 9% more abdominal obesity than someone who slept. I don’t know, I didn’t read the study but maybe it was eight hours a night. How do you determine when someone is reaching a plateau? Is it really a calorie and exercise issue or what role does lifestyle play in terms of sleep and recovery, those kinds of things?
Dr. Bill Campbell (01:42:11 -> 01:44:43)
Yeah. So I want to say that I’m not a sleep researcher. I’m not a sleep expert. Yeah, I wish I was, my lab is focused on the diet and the exercise component. So that’s what we focus on. But the research that I read the coaches that I know that, that, that are in the trenches, helping people with weight loss sleep would be the third area of importance and focus. So we have our caloric deficit, we have our exercise and we, and we would sleep. And again, I, I tend not, I, I do like numbers. I’m a scientist. So, but I appreciate that, that all of my, I don’t have clients right now but people don’t want to track 50,000 things. So I think they should track their calories for the people that need to do that. I think they should also track their performance in the gym and then maybe I would make an argument for sleep. Um, and the study you’re talking about was the best design sleep study I’ve ever read. They had these people live in a facility for up to, I think it was almost two months. And, yeah, they, they, they interrupted their sleep. They couldn’t sleep more than four hours. Um, the other and it was a crossover study. So one phase, they could not sleep more than four hours per night for two weeks straight, the other two week phase, they had to get it. I think it was at least eight hours. And what was really troubling about this? Um The overall body fat was not significant but the abdominal fat, the visceral and the adipose tissue. So the last place we want to store body fat is in the abdomen region. That’s exactly what happened in that study. And there’s also other studies that were not as well designed, which have made similar reports. So if you’re serious about fat loss, sleep needs to be optimized. Now, again, what does that mean? Um My research would say my reading uh seven hours per night is kind of the threshold that I read everywhere. Uh Don’t if you get less than seven hours that, that puts a lot of people at risk for, for other negative health outcomes. And from a fat loss person perspective, I just adopted that. Now again, some people can get by unless some people need more. But seven hours is, is that, that my reading of that literature, that’s always the number of hours that’s, that’s cited.
Dr Lyon (01:44:43 -> 01:45:09)
Well, you guys heard it here. Better get your sleep. And, you know, we saw that with, um, the data for night shift workers when calories were actually controlled, they definitely had more abdominal obesity and poor glycemic control and higher levels of insulin. So even with calories control just changing that circadian biology. So, yeah, that’s really, really interesting.
Dr. Bill Campbell (01:45:09 -> 01:45:14)
It’s like the third, I’ve been calling it the third frontier diet ,exercise, sleep
Dr Lyon (01:45:15 -> 01:45:23)
Well, nobody with two little kids knows anything about that. So, parents, if you have little Children, you might as well just forget that that is even an option.
Dr. Bill Campbell (01:45:23 -> 01:45:38)
Yeah, I got, I got multiple questions. What about interrupted sleep? And obviously it was always mothers and I was just like, well, the study didn’t measure that, but I just, I just always said it’s a season of life. I didn’t know how to answer it.
Dr Lyon (01:45:38 -> 01:45:49)
you will forever have a foot in your face. Um, when, when an individual now, so they’ve reached their body fat percentage. Now, what happens? What do they do?
Dr. Bill Campbell (01:45:49 -> 01:47:08)
So, I like to say, now you work on the skill of maintaining that and if you did your fat loss plan in a good way, which we’ve already talked about the good way, you’ve not drastically altered your lifestyle habits. So again, if somebody says I’m reducing my calories by 50% and I’m gonna lift six days per week and I’m gonna do seven days a week of cardio. They’re doing all of these somewhat, let’s just say good practices. But in a way that would never be sustainable. As soon as their diet’s over, they’re not gonna be able to maintain that. So, when the diet is over, well, first of all, we start with the, after the diet by what we do during the diet. And let’s not do things that are going to not be sustainable for, you know, for our foreseeable future. So again, hopefully you were resistance training and you’ll continue to resistance train. Um I would hopefully hope that you would be doing some level of cardiovascular exercise, but admittedly I would increase that during fat loss phases. And I just love this the way that it’s phrased once you have hit your body fat goal, now you get to work on the skill of maintaining it
Dr Lyon (01:47:10 -> 01:47:28)
And do your calories come up. So do you move them back up to maintenance? So, for that individual who was eating 2000 calories, that was their maintenance. We have reduced by 25% there. Now, at 1500 calories, they’ve now achieved their body fat percentage. Do we move them back up to their previous maintenance calorie?
Dr. Bill Campbell (01:47:29 -> 01:48:39)
Yes, I would. And, and, and there’s opinions on, do you do that the day after the diet? Do you just go right back or do you take 2-3 months to go back up to that level? Uh, the, the science is not clear on that. Um, I, I think it makes sense that you go back there, uh, somewhat gradually. So, not all at one time, but the reason that people were, I’ll just use myself when I get overweight. It’s because I have eaten in excess. I’ve been eating in a caloric surplus. So after my diet, if I go back to my maintenance calories and it’s my true maintenance calories, I should not expect any fat gain from that process. So that’s why I call it a skill. I, the skill now is I have to not overeat my maintenance calories and that’s something I struggle with. I can do diets relatively easily. I don’t, I’m not as good at, with the skill of living in a maintenance phase. So that’s, um, that’s where I need more, practice, more skill. Um And better discipline.
Dr Lyon (01:48:39 -> 01:48:47)
Bill, we know that you never get overweight. Come on. Um What about fat loss supplements?
Dr. Bill Campbell (01:48:48 -> 01:49:24)
I’ll just, I’ll use one word caffeine. It’s, it works, it’s relatively safe now. It’s not for everybody. Um And the thing about caffeine, it works through so many mechanisms. So there’s a very modest appetite suppressive effect of caffeine, not every study and the ones that have reported. It’s, it’s minor, but I know when I’m dieting every little bit helps and, and let me also say when I go on diets and I’m a fat loss researcher. So I go on diets a lot. I gain weight. I lose weight.
Dr Lyon (01:49:24 -> 01:49:25)
All for the job though, right?
Dr. Bill Campbell (01:49:27 -> 01:51:28)
um, sometimes, yes, sometimes no. I’m gonna start a diet in a couple of weeks and I’m gonna make that a case study. So that one will be the most scientific I’ve ever done it. But I personally don’t like to take fat loss supplements. I, I just, I like exercise and I like food restriction, but I can sit here and say caffeine is probably the best ingredient for fat loss that I’m aware of. Um, again, possibly a slight appetite suppressant, it increases your resting metabolic rate. It also increases your exercise, energy expenditure, it increases the thermic effect of food. So when you have it in your system and you eat a normal amount of food, you get an elevation in the number of calories that you get from digesting, absorbing and transporting the nutrients from a meal. Um And we have this also a a nutrient partitioning effect. The calories that you’re burning. Some research has showed that they are shunted towards fat loss. So it’s not just you’re burning calories, you’re burning more calories from body fat stores. Now, again, none of these things are um uh sig significantly high, but they’re all there. They’re all reported time after time after time. So caffeine is helps with metabolism, maybe a help with appetite and the other thing is if you are doing additional cardio, it also lowers the the the rating of perceived exertion. So it, it makes the, the feel the perception of how hard you’re working a little less. So it doesn’t feel like I’m exercising is hard when I use caffeine. So again, caffeine I think is great. I personally don’t like to use caffeine when I diet. But if anybody wants to, it’s um dosages are around 3 to 6 mg per kilogram of body weight for most people. That’s about 200 to 300 mg in terms of dosage.
Dr Lyon (01:51:29 -> 01:51:50)
Well, I love caffeine and I use caffeine nearly every day. So it’s amazing that you don’t use it, but I use it. I love it. I have a whole handful of ways that I get it. Whether it’s a pre workout or coffee I love coffee. I love black coffee. I love green coffee. I love powdered coffee.
Dr. Bill Campbell (01:51:50 -> 01:51:54)
You ever take the pills or no? You don’t take those?
Dr Lyon (01:51:54 -> 01:52:02)
No. Actually I do. There’s a company called thesis. I’m not sure if you’ve heard of them, but they do have formulas with caffeine in them. They’re amazing.
Dr. Bill Campbell (01:52:02 -> 01:52:07)
Now, I’m holding up a diet doctor pepper.
Dr Lyon (01:52:07 -> 01:52:24)
so glad that you held that up. You know why? Because there’s a lot of information on the internet about how artificial sweeteners can potentially blunt fat loss. And as a fat loss researcher, what would your answer be to that?
Dr. Bill Campbell (01:52:24 -> 01:53:06)
Um I’m not aware of any evidence where that has been shown. Now, I, I know where people get that they will use correlation studies or association studies. Um And whenever I get a crazy claim, that’s the first question I ask, I’m just going to ask you or prove me wrong, but that was from some correlation study and, and again, correlation studies aren’t worthless but you can make them say whatever you want. Um I, again, I’ve never read a study that, that made that, that led me to the conclusion that that anybody is doing any harm by using artificial sweeteners relative to fat loss goals
Dr Lyon (01:53:06 -> 01:53:09)
I think that that’s important to mention. Can you say that again?
Dr. Bill Campbell (01:53:10 -> 01:53:22)
Yeah, I’m not aware of any, any research that I’ve read that would suggest that using artificial sweeteners is harming your fat loss effects your fat loss goals.
Dr Lyon (01:53:23 -> 01:53:55)
Yeah, I, I wanted you to repeat that because part of the goal of this podcast is to really have transparent conversations with experts who are very well studied in their prospective fields. So you as a fat loss researcher, this is what you do every day. You have a physique enhancement research lab. It really helps the listener cut through all the curiosities and you know, someone of the BS out there so that they can really be successful. And I think that that’s very important because it helps people.
Dr. Bill Campbell (01:53:56 -> 01:54:14)
Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, let me just say if, if you could drink pure water for all of your beverage is great. But there’s other research that diet sodas are actually helpful with weight loss. Now, I’m not a, that is not my area of expertise, but I am aware of those studies.
Dr Lyon (01:54:16 -> 01:54:25)
Any of the big downfalls. Are there any massive pitfalls that people who are going on a fat loss journey that you see them do routinely over and over again?
Dr. Bill Campbell (01:54:26 -> 01:55:39)
Yeah, that one which I already mentioned and, and if I had a mirror, I’d be telling myself this, it’s unrealistic expectations. Everybody is impatient when they start a diet because they’re hungry, they’re exercising hard. And it’s just, it’s if the number, the number one that the biggest advice I could give to anybody is don’t look at day to day changes in your weight or even body composition. If you could promise me, promise yourself, I will do this four weeks at a time. You will feel you will have a totally different perspective on your efforts and your success. It is those daily weigh ins. And again, I’m an advocate of daily weigh ins. But I take a weekly average of those. I never get excited or depressed on a daily weight in always take an average because there’s too many ups and downs day to day. But again, taking it further one month checkpoint gives you a completely different perspective on your dieting. So that’s, I think that’s the, hopefully that answers your question. That’s the best advice I can give.
Dr Lyon (01:55:39 -> 01:56:05)
I think that that’s great advice. I, so my son will be turning two in March and I tracked my weight loss journey from. So I had two babies very close together and I am now back to my more normal weight and I lost 20 lb of fat and I kept nearly all my muscle just solely fat from doing it slow. Exactly the ways in which you’re talking about so it can be done.
Dr. Bill Campbell (01:56:06 -> 01:56:23)
Yeah. And when you do it slow, it becomes incorporated into your lifestyle. That’s, that’s what’s key. Um If you’re not doing things that you can’t see yourself doing six months from now, be careful, do something that is a little bit more sustainable in your fat loss plan.
Dr Lyon (01:56:23 -> 01:56:27)
Do you see a difference in fat loss for men versus women?
Dr. Bill Campbell (01:56:28 -> 01:57:09)
No, I, I don’t, I don’t see the, the everything we’re talking about works effectively for both males. Females. Females will naturally have higher amounts of body fat. Um, females also have more what we call essential body fat. So if a female had the desire to get really lean, and again, now we’re talking competition, bodybuilding bikini competitors, they are going to struggle getting to a same level of leanness as a male. But in terms of the approaches, the strategies, I, I personally don’t see a difference. I, I don’t have a male and female and design two different programs.
Dr Lyon (01:57:10 -> 01:57:33)
That’s very interesting and important because there’s a lot of discussion about how men and women are different in terms of fat loss and certainly muscle gain. But I believe that it was you who said that at the end of the day, they’re not that different in terms of, is that true? Men and women for percentage wise muscle gain?
Dr. Bill Campbell (01:57:34 -> 01:58:59)
Exactly. Yes. So when, when you base muscle changes and this is usually a muscle hypertrophy discussion, we all say, well, males gain more muscle from a resistance training programs. That’s true if you look at the absolute gain. So if a male goes from 2lbs to 4lbs of muscle, let’s just say 2lbs in an area of their body, they go 2 to 4, they’ve gained 2lbs of muscle. A female starts with 1lb of muscle and they go to 2, well, they’ve also doubled their muscle, but they only gained a pound of muscle whereas the male gained 2lbs So when the comparisons are made on a relative basis, so relative to the amount of muscle mass that a female starts with, she is actually able to gain the same amount of muscle relative to her starting point as a male. But absolutely, because the males start with more, they actually they have more that they do gain more on an absolute basis. Um I will say this, there is more recent research trying to time training around the menstrual cycle and possibly making things more anabolic around that. Um I’m not convinced that there may be something to that. I don’t have enough data presently. For me to say yes, we are going to structure resistance training programs that are in concert with the menstrual cycle that day may come.
Dr Lyon (01:59:00 -> 01:59:12)
But yeah, it also seems like adding a level of complexity that um seems to be maybe a barrier for individuals if they were really, you know, we’re already doing a lot, you know.
Dr. Bill Campbell (01:59:12 -> 01:59:31)
Yes. Yeah. You could say that it violates our principle of simplicity, which that is, that’s I have a list of core values in my lab. And I think the very first one is be simple. So yeah, what is it that there’s the famous phrase complex is the enemy of execution. So I I’m glad you brought that up.
Dr Lyon (01:59:32 -> 01:59:48)
Yeah, in terms of the, where the calories come from, whether they’re carbohydrates or fats, do you have a preference of? What kind of carbohydrates are they fibrous carbohydrates? Um Starchy carbohydrates. What, where do you fall into what you recommend?
Dr. Bill Campbell (01:59:49 -> 02:01:42)
Yeah, I don’t, I don’t go to the starchy versus fibers. What I, what I tell people is you’re going to have X amount of carbs that you’re going to eat in a day. So I tend to look at the world from a processed food versus non processed food. So, and when I say non processed foods, let’s just call them the nutrient dense, the kinds of foods that you would want your children to be eating that they’re the healthier foods, quote unquote, healthier foods. So with dieting, you can lose body fat, eating processed foods as long as you’re in a caloric deficit. But there is a very big trade off when you do that and that trade off is hunger. So if you’re eating processed foods, potato chips, pretzels, chocolate chip cookies, which I love those types of things, are not going to, they’re not going to lower your hunger much. And obviously the fallout there is what I tell people is you can beat hunger today. You can beat hunger for lunch, you can beat hunger tomorrow. You will never beat hunger for weeks at a time. Hunger will always win. So it makes sense that you choose foods when you’re dieting, that help you with hunger the most. And I can tell you that what they, what the researchers called ultra processed foods are the worst. Now, does that mean you cannot have ultra processed foods when you’re dieting? No, but if you choose them and those are abundant in your diet, you’re making your journey, you’re making your process more difficult because yeah, pop tarts. Yeah, that would be the kind of like the epitome of a of a ultra processed food
Dr Lyon (02:01:42 -> 02:01:44)
So I should probably throw those out.
Dr. Bill Campbell (02:01:45 -> 02:02:28)
Well, yeah, you can just know that compared to oates, oates is gonna satisfy you for longer. But I also say this like I love chocolate chip cookies. I will never go on a diet where I won’t have chocolate chip cookies. I would rather okay. So I’ll be a little hungrier. I would rather have the, whatever those cookies are in that moment. Um, but again, I’m still controlling for my, my calories and we have to admit that that makes it harder. But if, if, if somebody depriving themselves of their favorite snack food, I, I don’t think ultimately that’s good for adherence and longevity. So you can make it work within a diet.
Dr Lyon (02:02:29 -> 02:02:34)
What about metabolic adaptations for long periods or within long periods of dieting?
Dr. Bill Campbell (02:02:36 -> 02:02:55)
So let’s let’s define that. So let me define it and then you can give me feedback if this is kind of what you’re thinking. So, metabolic adaptation is I’m dieting for a, for a period of time and over time, my body adapts to that diet and now my, my metabolic rate, my metabolism is lower is that, is that you’re
Dr Lyon (02:02:56 -> 02:02:57)
Dr. Bill Campbell (02:02:58 -> 02:04:51)
So that’s where these diet breaks that we talked earlier. That’s one of the, the benefits that theoretically they would help with and some research would suggest that they do. Um I’m gonna, I’m gonna sound like a broken record here. But if you do the things that we’ve established when you’re dieting high protein diet, resistance training or any type, even aerobic exercise is better than no exercise, those things will prevent metabolic adaptation in my lab studies where we prioritize a 25% caloric deficit resistance training, protein metabolic adaptation does not happen. It simply does not happen. And let’s talk a little bit about why your metabolic rate, your metabolism is very tightly controlled to your lean mass. Let’s just call it muscle mass. So if you lose muscle mass, you can predict, you will also have a slower metabolism. And one thing I’ve noticed that here’s a little hack that I tell people if you just look at all of the weight loss studies and if you, if you just look at what happened to their metabolic rates when they’ve lost weight, that is a nearly perfect relationship to what happened to their muscle mass. Now, it’s funny, it doesn’t happen as much in the other direction. Um If you gain a couple pounds of muscle, it doesn’t always mean you’re going to have a pretty robust increase in your metabolic rate. I used to think it did, it just doesn’t happen. But in weight loss studies, metabolic rate and muscle are very tied. So again, in my studies, when subjects did lose lean mass, they also had a suppressed metabolic rate. But across the board, um our studies keep metabolic rate, we keep lean mass. It’s, it’s very, it’s, it’s a, it’s kind of like I said, if you want to know what happened to muscle when dieting, just look at your metabolism,
Dr Lyon (02:04:51 -> 02:04:53)
why do you think it’s not bidirectional?
Dr. Bill Campbell (02:04:55 -> 02:05:23)
That’s a great question. I don’t think I have an answer to that and it doesn’t make sense. Um, we used to, you know, we were, at least I was taught and I used to teach my students years ago. If you increase muscle mass you can expect, you know, a large increase in metabolic rate. But the actual research, even my own research doesn’t, it just doesn’t support it. But, yeah, I don’t know. I would, I would like to ask somebody who’s a muscle doctor. Why? So you tell me why doesn’t it work?
Dr Lyon (02:05:24 -> 02:06:33)
I have theories but maybe we can get uh Dr Samuel Buckner back on here. Um You know, I, I think it’s interesting in the way that perhaps we have, I don’t want to say that we have a, we obviously don’t have a muscle set point because I mean, is that true? I’m sure that there’s a cap to how much muscle we could put on. I also think that the body likes to have a certain amount of muscle and perhaps there’s a way in which um there’s a stability of that muscle. Again, I have no idea. We’ll have to get Dr Samuel Buckner. If you’re listening buddy, we need you on the round table. Um I really wanted to talk about muscle hypertrophy, but I think that we’ll have to leave that for part two. Now, bill, I have so much respect for you. I love asking you questions. So for the individuals out there at poor bill, I will reach out to bill all time. Hey, bill, what do you think of this? How about this? How are we gonna measure muscle mass? You have a great research review. I would love for you to share a little bit about that where people can find you all the research that you’re doing and also you have a new project that I know that you are working on now.
Dr. Bill Campbell (02:06:34 -> 02:07:53)
Yes. So that our project is my research team and I we’re going to be doing a systematic review on concurrent training and fat loss. So concurrent training, if you are resistance training and you add cardio to that, what do you, what can we expect to happen in terms of body fat loss is um in terms of my research review, I it’s called Body By Science. And what I do is I summarize two articles every month that are solely focused on fat loss and muscle building and that’s good. But the best thing about it is I bring in experts like you Dr Lyon, who they, they look at the research and then they tell me and my subscribers how they would apply that research into the lifestyles of their clients or patients in your case. And I think that’s the true value. So if anybody’s interested in that, my website is Bill Campbell phd dot com. It’ll take you right to body by science where you can get it. Oh, and I also give away the inaugural issue which our, our friend Lauren Conlan, um she contributed to that one. So if you just want to get a, just to see if it’s something you would like. Again, if you’re trying to stay on top of the science of fat loss and muscle building, it’s, it’s, it’s a research review that’s curated for that.
Dr Lyon (02:07:55 -> 02:08:31)
Well, thank you so much for sharing Bill. One of the things I love about you and I think this is a mark of a great scientist. You’re very humble and you’re open to learning and you want to hear from other people, even though you would be considered an O G. Not that you’re that old but an O G in the Fat Loss Arena. Really, the physique enhancement and, and it’s just really amazing and people are lucky to hear from you. I’m gonna link all your information. Your Instagram is fantastic. I always take the quiz by the way and oftentimes share it. Thank you again, Dr Bill Campbell.
Dr. Bill Campbell (02:08:32 -> 02:08:33)
Thank you for having me.