Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 0:53

Jamie Cochran, welcome to the show.

Jamie Cochran 1:01

Thank you for having me.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 1:02

I want to start out with a little section that was sent from a Commodore Seal, and it was about the selection of Spartan warriors, and it goes like this: he selected those who would go based on the strength of the women in their lives, after such a great loss, if the women faltered in their commitments, Sparta would falter, and the rest of Greece would think it useless to stand against Persian invaders. The Spartan women were strong, they did not falter, and the women in our lives are the same.

Jamie Cochran 1:46

I love that, especially being former military wives, spouses. That’s the version of modern day Spartan women, in my opinion.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 1:56

We are in a space where people are always talking about leadership and strength, and oftentimes we hear that women leadership is different, and that the way in which they go through life. For example, if I were to say, and not tell you the gender of this person, they were wired and tired and anxious and frazzled, you would say, I don’t know, and I said, is that a male or female? You might say that’s a woman. Woman,

Jamie Cochran 2:28

yeah.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 2:30

Looking back, when I think about history, strong men and strong women, it is collectively what is needed, and the idea that Sparta chose their warriors not based on the warrior but based on the woman behind them. I think just makes a ton of sense.

Jamie Cochran 2:50

It does to me too. I, some of the best, most strength I’ve seen in the leaders that I’ve had the opportunity to work with are from the women, the women in my life who have set the example for me, and I think about the importance of that aspect in our lives as mothers and families, and as spouses standing behind our men in those scenarios. It’s critical.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 3:13

You had said something that I loved. I was just going down this rabbit hole, and obviously you and I have been friends for quite some time, and I just went down this rabbit hole, and one of the things that really struck me was this idea that we shouldn’t have hard conversations.

Jamie Cochran 3:27

Yeah, so in our company, what we teach clients is there’s two things we shouldn’t have. The reason we shouldn’t have hard conversations is because we should try to be avoiding them in the first place, meaning I’m going to do everything I can to build a relationship with you, and if I do that properly, and we’re in this relationship, and I’m giving regular feedback, and we’re having those conversations, debriefing things, I shouldn’t have to have the hard conversation with you, but when it gets to a point where that hard conversation needs to happen, we have to be timely and quick with it, because the problems that we’re likely trying to solve together are just getting worse the longer that we prolong that difficult conversation, so avoid it if you can, and if you need to, let’s let’s get it going,

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 4:08

let’s do it quick,

Jamie Cochran 4:09

and let’s do it from a place of ownership, where can I own that in that conversation as well,

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 4:14

because I’ve heard you say, or you’ve repeated the phrase, hire slow, fire fast, and that’s not exactly, and you don’t necessarily agree with that.

Jamie Cochran 4:25

I don’t necessarily agree with that. We, I’m not, I’m not quick to fire fast at Echelon Front, for sure.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 4:31

We’re not either, by the way.

Jamie Cochran 4:32

Yeah, because I really believe that typically people want to do a good job, and if you hire, I believe in hiring somewhat slow and looking really following your instinct in that making sure you’re hiring the right fit for your organization, but if someone isn’t performing, I really want to get to the root cause of why they’re not performing, and oftentimes the root cause of those problems are solvable through leadership, so I really believe in exhausting your leadership efforts before you have to get to the point of firing someone, not to say that. You don’t get to that point in some circumstances, but it’s further down the road for me, because I feel like it’s a leadership problem if I have someone on my team who’s not performing,

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 5:08

and you are Jamie Cochran, COO of Echelon Front. You started with Jocko 13 years ago, and you guys have built and transformed leadership. One of the reasons why I really wanted to have you on is because I think that you represent that, and we have to understand more about leadership. You’ve said that some of the biggest problems in our lives are not the problems that we’re trying to tackle, but our leadership problems.

Jamie Cochran 5:34

That’s our core belief. The problems and challenges you’re facing in your life, whether it’s in business or at home with your families, these are leadership problems, and if you can look at them through the lens of this is a leadership problem, you can now take proven strategies and tactics to solve those problems, leadership strategies and tactics. So that’s our belief that everything is a leadership problem, and you can solve those problems through leadership.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 5:58

The other thing that I was thinking about, as I was, we actually got hair and makeup done today. I wanted to mention that, because I know that mostly you usually do not do that.

Jamie Cochran 6:07

Not my thing. My colleagues will give me a hard time.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 6:10

I’m so glad we just wanted to out you on that just right away. You know, in medicine, there’s always evolving tools, there’s evolving tools, there’s evolving strategies for management of our, of a particular circumstance, if someone has hypothyroidism, this is the protocol that we use. As I was thinking about prepping for this show in leadership, I don’t know how there is an evolution in tools.

Jamie Cochran 6:36

Yeah, that’s an interesting concept. So, there definitely is. I mean, you have, you know, history has proven books and knowledge and experience and different types of things that people try to apply to leadership. I think what’s interesting about, you know, specifically the book that we teach from, which is Extreme Ownership, written by Leif and Jocko, is it there’s not a lot of new things in this book per se. We know good leadership is working together as a team, delegating tasks properly, communicating effectively. All of that in the book that they gave us are tools that we have always known to be good about leadership. The tool they gave us that was very unique is this idea of extreme ownership, which is which is not part of our natural instinct as humans. That was the piece that was a game changer for me, so I think within our business, our goal is constantly thinking, what is the what can we do to help people understand this isn’t just theory, we can make it practical. What are some of those tools and resources we resources we could put together to help them actually take these theories and these principles and put them into practice, which is the ultimate goal

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 7:40

for extreme ownership, that’s something difficult to take accountability for. You know, what do I mean by that? And I can just relate this back to medicine. If someone gets hypothyroidism, it’s not their fault, right? You don’t say, “Well, you know what, you’re the reason why potentially your thyroid failed, or if someone got cancer, obviously there’s lifestyle choices, but then there are things without, of your outside of your control, with extreme ownership. As I’ve thought about how to apply this, and how the listener can apply this, when something goes wrong, for example, say a book launch, or something with the kids, I want to know, how do you apply ownership? And just as a mom, and I’m going to highlight where this is going. Both your boys, you’ve got three kids, both your boys are into wrestling. Yep, you made a cooler full of stuff that you woke up really early to do. You know, you’re probably thinking about it. You woke up at five in the morning, whatever, to put this cooler together, and your son forgets

Jamie Cochran 8:45

1. Yep,

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 8:47

but, and this is again, this isn’t a life or death critical situation, but in that moment I would be like, you know, you forgot it, this is 100% your fault.

Jamie Cochran 9:00

Yeah, so listen, I think the challenge there, because you bring up a great point. My instinct, trust me, in that moment was, yeah, this is your fault, like, and there was a little bit of like that resentment you feel of like, I got up this morning, I packed this cooler for you, I put all this effort, and you don’t even care about it. My option in that moment is to sit in that space and be frustrated and angry, and likely create friction in my relationship with my kid and the way that I engage with him, which isn’t going to help him go do his best on the mat that day at that tournament, or to look at it through this lens of ownership, that’s the piece that’s really hard for people, because it doesn’t feel good, but when I look at that situation through the lens of ownership, I start to see that, yeah, there’s things I could have done very differently in that situation, so that week later at the next tournament, you know what I did? I didn’t pack the cooler, I was like, ‘Hey, you got this tournament tomorrow. I went to the store and got you stuff, don’t forget to pack the cooler. The effort of now delegating that task, giving him a little more ownership, created a scenario where he packed the cooler, and because. That he was more inclined to take it. My instinct in that moment was to think, okay, am I really going to fault a 17 year old for forgetting something? Yeah, I did that all the time at 17. I do it now as an adult. So my choice in that moment was to take the ownership path of, okay, what am I going to do next time to solve this problem, even though it feels like in this moment it’s not my fault, I can still take ownership of how I respond and what the next step is, and then the ownership piece allows me to maintain the relationship with my kid, which is the only thing that matters in our family home, is that our relationship is strong and he sees me as someone he wants to come to and talk to and ask questions with. So that was my choice, and I think that’s what ownership gives us, is this sense of control in those situations when we just want to feel angry and frustrated, which doesn’t solve the problem either. It

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 10:47

doesn’t, and then you would lash out at him. Or running a business is not different than running a home.

Jamie Cochran 10:54

Nope, not at all.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 10:55

How do you apply extreme ownership without creating a codependency?

Jamie Cochran 11:01

Yeah, so there’s a big, there’s a big frustration sometimes people feel, or I should say, it’s more of a question, where people say, okay, I’ve read the book, I understand what ownership looks like, but the challenge I’m having is when I take ownership, I start taking ownership of all these things, and now I, and I’m kind of unintentionally micromanaging stuff and creating that sense of codependency. So, what we always try to explain to people is that ownership is owning it all, not doing it all. We’re not,

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 11:30

wait, say that again:

Jamie Cochran 11:31

owning it all, not doing it all. We’re taking ownership of the outcome of what we’re trying to accomplish. That doesn’t mean that I’m doing everything, that means I’m implementing the other things we teach, which is decentralized command, giving people ownership, allowing them to lead at their level, prioritize and execute. Make sure that the people around me understand what the priorities are. That’s my job as a leader, to own the overall outcome of what we’re trying to accomplish. Doesn’t mean I have to do everything to get us there. That’s what the team is for, whether it’s your family, which is your ultimate team, or your business colleagues, and the people that you work with.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 12:07

Female leadership and authority – just gonna throw those two words out there. I mean, female leadership is two words, but the leadership and authority – is there a line between strength and aggression, and imposing your will to get, say, the best out of someone.

Jamie Cochran 12:29

So, here’s my thought on this, and this might not be something that everyone agrees with, but here’s my thought, because I think that there’s a lot of questions that I hear from the women that we work with around this idea of strength versus aggression, and the theory that I hear, or the feedback I get, is well, if I show up and I’m strong and I make decisions and I do these things in the same way that a man might, I’m seen as bitchy, itchy,

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 12:57

or too much,

Jamie Cochran 12:58

yeah, or too direct and too too aggressive, and my feedback is, listen, I have worked with all manners of leaders, men and women, and I’ll tell you, on the men’s side, I’ve worked with men who are aggressive and, you know, direct and strong, but maybe over over stepping their bounds, and you know what I thought of those men, they were assholes. The same thing applies. So, there’s a difference between strength and confidence and ego and aggressiveness. And I think if we’re feeling that we’re coming up against this feedback that we’re being aggressive in the way we’re engaging, especially as women, where we might be more sensitive to that, that label, we have to take the ownership side of, like, that self-reflection. Am I acting this way, or am I approaching this with a sense of confidence? Confidence is great, without allowing my ego to engage. That does create that sense for people that I’m being aggressive. We can control that a lot more than we give ourselves credit for.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 13:57

I agree with you. I agree with you. And, as I thought about this show, I thought, okay, so how do we create a show that other both men and women haven’t heard? There’s a very unique position, and I say female leadership, although really it doesn’t matter if someone is a man or a woman, sure, but there are extra responsibilities, whether they are culturally imposed or not, for women. Yeah, it is just that way. I mean, men don’t have nine months of pregnancy. There are just things that women are up against. And I was looking at some of the statistics, and you know that women hold 29% of the C-suite roles globally.

Jamie Cochran 14:41

I didn’t know that. That feels higher than what I would have expected.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 14:46

I like that’s positivity.

Jamie Cochran 14:47

Yeah,

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 14:48

I,

Jamie Cochran 14:49

it’s still low. I’d like to see that more balanced, but that is actually higher than what I would have guessed.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 14:54

Well, we’ll see if we have to fire some of our executive team for helping with those statistics. Just kidding, you can edit that out. Just kidding, guys. Women are not predominantly in C-suite executive roles.

Jamie Cochran 15:08

As

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 15:10

humans, I think that we believe things to be true, for example, if they are capable, if they are not, and then perpetuate a narrative forward, and oftentimes you would, you hear people say, okay, well, women aren’t as good leaders, or they have to be in the home, or just put in whatever you want. Yeah. Do you think that there is an inherent quality, an inherent quality in a woman, a mother that makes her a better leader or more effective leader.

Jamie Cochran 15:46

Absolutely. So, when my husband travels, he packs a bag and he walks out the door. That’s it. That’s what he does. When I travel, and listen, this is the dynamic of our home. No, it’s not the same for everyone. My husband and I are a partnership. I’m not resentful towards that, but when I leave, you know I’m here on this trip, I’ve got to get someone scheduled to take the dog, and who’s going to take the girl to the soccer, and who’s going to make sure we have x, y, and z, and what’s for dinner when I leave, and all these other components, and my point being is that the environment in which most women are operating, when you’re trying to be a mom within your family, but also operate in this business world and contribute to this broader mission outside of the home, the challenge that they have is trying to balance it all, and what I have found is that the women that do it are so capable of recognizing that, so they’re more empathetic to the people on their team, that gives them that sense of, you know, empathy. I think of I have a young daughter, and I look at the changes she’s going through, and the challenges that she’s now having to navigate. I think all of those things growing up that we deal with as women, just, you know, not to get too personal, but at the start of our cycles, imagine what we have to learn at a young age, that you have to show up even when you don’t want, even when you don’t feel like it, so I think that creates strength in women that really sets them apart as leaders. Listen, I have had some – I have right now incredible male leaders that I look up to that I highly value in my life. I also have the women in my life that look, I look back on, and I think, “Man, how did you do it? How did you run a business or support a business in this function, and also be home and present with your kids. That’s a level of strength and leadership that I think is really unique to women, and we shouldn’t, we shouldn’t downgrade what that takes in order to show up in both places and be present for both of them and show up 100% on both sides.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 17:39

Yeah, that’s that’s beautifully, beautifully said, because it is, it is very challenging, and it is very challenging, especially if you’re fulfilling the impact that you or other people listening to this show would want to have. It, there are things that are really unique, you know, as I think about how people climb the ladder or climb to the next, whatever the next step is for them. People often experience imposter syndrome, imposter impostor syndrome. Do you think that that affects.. well, I suppose the first thing is, do you think that that’s a natural part or a natural evolution that people go through in leadership?

Jamie Cochran 18:17

Absolutely, and I actually would argue it’s good. I would say imposter syndrome at the start is good, because what that tells me is that your ego isn’t out of control, your ego is in check. That’s what’s creating a little bit of that of that imposter syndrome. And at the beginning, it’s okay to feel that way. We just have to continue to build on our confidence and get outside of that. Staying there isn’t good, but in the beginning, that tells me someone is humble, they’ve got their ego in check, and they’re questioning themselves in the right way. Can I do this job? Then we have to build the confidence and get past that, because staying there doesn’t help us or the people around us. But having a little bit of that in the beginning, I think, is a positive thing. How long do you think that that

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 19:00

should last. For

Jamie Cochran 19:01

listen, I had been doing the job of Chief Operating Officer at Echelon Front before I was given the title, and the second Jocko gave me that title, I felt that sense of imposter syndrome, and it was somewhat short-lived, you know. Give me a month or a couple weeks into it when I really started to feel comfortable with, like, okay, this makes sense for me now, but the second he gave me that title, what I felt in that moment, that imposter syndrome came from the weight that I now felt of the responsibility for these people on my team. What’s interesting is I was already responsible for them, it was just a title change, so again, I think it needs to be short-lived, but that initial sense of questioning of am I good enough for this? Can I do this job is a good thing in my opinion. It shows that your ego is in check, because we don’t make good decisions when our ego is out there. And so, if I can start from a position with a little bit of that sense of just being reserved, I think that’s a good thing. And then we need to quickly get past that, get ourselves up to speed, start. To build those relationships, start to be more confident in our decision making process, and within a few weeks, maybe we should be coming out of that and feeling more confident in our role and who we are,

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 20:12

moving through it very quickly.

Jamie Cochran 20:13

Yes,

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 20:14

because if someone doesn’t, I don’t know if you’ve experienced this, but then you see self sabotage,

Jamie Cochran 20:18

yeah, and that’s not good for anybody, if you stay in that space of imposter syndrome. I’m not good enough. I don’t know if I can do this job. I think people around me are questioning or judging me. If you stay in that space, you’re liable to make really poor decisions for yourself. That’s the other side of your ego, where our egos are good. They push us to want to win and want to succeed. The thing we teach people is it’s not about being void of our ego, it’s being in control of it. So, as long as we’re in control, that’s a good thing. And if we’re so in control that we’re not letting our ego out at all to push us and want us to move forward, that’s a bad place to be for the people around us. So, we’ve got to find the right balance. There

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 20:59

are people naturally capable? Are there certain people that are better leaders naturally? And then, do you think so? In muscle, right? Muscle science, you can only get so big without taking other anabolic agents or something of that nature. A stimulus that is unnatural, per se. Is there a leadership threshold?

Jamie Cochran 21:25

I don’t think so. I think, and we believe at Echelon Front, that leadership is a skill, and it’s something that can be learned, can be improved. I have seen leaders that were fully in that place of imposter syndrome take the principles we teach and practice them just like you would any skill, learning a language or learning a musical instrument, and I have seen them get better and more effective at making decisions in their leadership role. In the same sense, I’ve seen seasoned leaders who have been longtime leadership roles step up and reassess themselves and realize that there’s still room for improvement. So, I think if we think about this almost like a muscle leadership as a muscle. If you’re building that muscle, just like muscle, it can atrophy your leadership skills, can atrophy if you’re not constantly working on them. So, I don’t, I don’t subscribe to the idea that some leaders are just naturally better than others. I think there are characteristics that make leadership easier for some people than it is for others, but I really believe that anyone who wants to be an effective leader within their role at their level can learn the skill of leadership and get better at it over time.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 22:31

The idea of long language, okay? The idea of a love language, if you heard of this, that certain people like acts of service, other people relate to words of affirmation. Is there a leadership language similar to that, meaning if you are a certain type of person, do I need to change my leadership style to get the best out of you.

Jamie Cochran 23:05

This is the biggest challenge leaders face, because we get stuck in this is who I am, this is how I do things, and everyone else should just understand that. And what we teach at Echelon Front is, you think about communicating. I’ve got two bosses. I’ll use my two bosses, Leif and Jocko, different personalities. And so, what I had to learn to be an effective leader for each of them is their preferred mode of communication, how they prefer to communicate. Leif Babin is Texas-born. He wants to know about your family, how your weekend was. If you’re gonna call him, you better have an hour to go through everything you’ve been doing for the week, and I know he’s gonna ask a lot more questions. He’s, you know, if I’m quick and short with him, he’s gonna think, “Well, man, is Jamie upset with me? I’ve got to have that time. Jocko Willink is a busy guy, and we have a lot of leadership capital. We have a great relationship. What I know about him, he’s kind of bullet points. So, what I can do with him is, I can say, ‘Hey, Jocko, in a text, ABC, and he’s like, ‘Yes, no, let me think about it. That’s it. He doesn’t need more from me. My best option as a leader is to think and get to my best option as a leader is to get to know the people around me, and if I can do that effectively, I’m going to adjust my leadership style based on who they are, I have people on my team who need more of me in certain aspects of their leadership role, and others that are like, just give me the freedom and autonomy, and I’m good to go. I have to know that about them, and I’m going to make the adjustments to meet them where they’re at. That’s the most effective leaders can be, is if they’re meeting people where they’re at. What I hear a lot is, people go, I’m just a direct person, that’s just who I am. And you’re like, all right, well, if you’re being direct and that other person is offended, how are you ever going to build a relationship with that person and work together as a team? It doesn’t work. You have to be willing to get outside your comfort zone and meet people where they’re at,

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 24:59

1. People, where they’re at, is really important, I think, especially I think about my kids.

Jamie Cochran 25:05

Yeah,

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 25:05

I don’t have an option. I need to meet Leonidas, also known as King of Sparta, my five year old, someone who works on my team. How do I determine, or how does one determine? I’m sure you’ve had this question many times. I’ve met this person where they’re at. Oftentimes, I would turn it internal and I would think to myself, okay, well, I am not a good enough leader in the way that I’m still not getting what the expectation is, or what I know this person is capable.

Jamie Cochran 25:38

Yeah, there’s a, there’s a, there’s a threshold here, because I think people struggle with this. You have an underperformer, or someone who is not delivering on what you’re asking of them. I think what you just described is what I always recommend to people as the first starting point, looking internal, taking that assessment of ownership. What am I doing? Do I know this person well enough? Have I built enough, a strong enough relationship to understand them. Do they understand what’s being asked of them? Have I outlined the roles and responsibilities in a way that they recognize for themselves how to contribute to the broader mission? Do they feel valued? There’s all these questions I’m going to ask myself first. You do get to a point in some relationships that if you’ve done all of these things, you’re now going to escalate the directness, escalate the counseling, and now you might be entering into a process by which they may be working towards being offloaded. But before we get there, I’m going to take ownership of every step along the way. Have I communicated properly? Do they understand what’s being asked of them? Are they in the right role? How many times I have talked to leaders that are frustrated by someone on their team, and the answer was typically, hey, they’re not in the right role, they don’t know how to contribute to what you’re asking for, but if you moved them over here, they could probably really succeed. So, even those questions would be things that I would ask myself first, and once I’ve exhausted that list, if I start to assess this person and say, okay, my effort to help this person get to where they need to be is now impacting the rest of the team, that might be the threshold for me, where I start to say, you may not get to work here anymore, that would be that line for me, where I would assess that.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 27:13

Do you find it difficult to separate the emotion and attachment to that person? And I’ve heard there was you guys did a video, and it was, it was something about being cold and detached. It wasn’t, obviously, that’s not the title of it. How do you, how do you manage that? How do you internally navigate that?

Jamie Cochran 27:34

I think in every situation, every day, we are dealing with a variety of emotions, and if we’re dealing with someone on our team who’s not performing, obviously there’s emotions there, because I care about my team, even if they’re an underperformer, I still want them to succeed, even if they’re not going to be here anymore, working for us, I still care about them and their family and their livelihood, I recognize that’s a huge burden that I carry as their leader, so those emotions I think are valuable for indicating to us that things are important. Our emotions tell us, hey, this is important, you need to give this your attention. But what I know to be true is that we don’t make good emotion. We don’t.. what I know to be true is that we don’t make good decisions when we’re emotional. So what we teach at Echelon Front is this idea of detachment. We always have to be detached from our ego, our emotions, our own perspective, and if we can be detached in those moments, we’re liable to make much better decisions. So, I think in those instances, I am constantly saying, okay, detach from this, make sure your emotions aren’t involved, make sure your ego isn’t creeping in there, then I can see the picture more clearly, I can see the truth of what we’re dealing with and make better decisions for the team.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 28:45

You’ve mentioned ego a couple times. How do we know what it is and whether it’s in check?

Jamie Cochran 28:51

So, your ego is always at play, it’s always there. I think of it as like this little thing sitting on your shoulder that’s constantly whispering your new ear, and it’s telling you things like you’re right, they don’t know what they’re talking about. Your plan’s better, it’s whispering constantly, so we have to recognize it and be able to put it in a box. We tell people all the time that your ego is the number one killer in business and in life, and I have seen this time and time again. You have friction in a relationship, it’s ego. You have two people fighting over something. It’s ego. I did an audit one day because we’d been talking about ego on one of our podcasts, and I thought, okay, I’m gonna take this audit for myself of my ego, and it was amazing to me the ways in which, if you’re paying attention, it shows up. I’m at the gym, I’m working out, we’re doing the same workout, some kind of am rap, and I’m paying attention to the girl next to me who’s moving faster than me, but is clearly cheating on the reps. You know what my ego is telling me, she’s cheating. I’ve got a whole opinion about what’s going on over here. And meanwhile, when I take that detachment from my ego for a second, I put it in a box, I go, well, what does it matter? Maybe she’s modified. For something I have no visibility on. Who cares what she’s doing? I need to focus on myself, even in those little tiny ways our ego creeps up. So we have to recognize it’s always talking to us, it loves us, and if we let it, it will love us to death. It’ll impress, it’ll impact every relationship that we have. So we really have to learn how to put it in a box, it’s not that we’re, we don’t have an ego, because we need it to push us to want to be better, but we can’t allow it to dictate our decisions, we just can’t. It’ll, it’ll, it’ll move us in the wrong direction,

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 30:32

no matter what, because you said that ego is good, and then we need it to drive us forward.

Jamie Cochran 30:39

If it is controlled, we’re okay. I’m a competitive person. I want to win. I want to show up. I want to, I want to succeed. That is my ego that pushes me to want to drive and be something better. That’s, that’s a good thing, but I really try to keep a good grasp on that ego that’s whispering my ear. I really try not to let it influence the decisions that I’m making. It can push me, but it can’t be dictating the decisions that I’m making.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 31:07

It can push you, but it shouldn’t dictate the decisions.

Jamie Cochran 31:10

Yeah, it can’t be involved in that part of it. I’m liable to make bad decisions when that happens.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 31:15

You brought up your competitive nature, and you and I were chatting earlier. Do you think that it is a negative that women, or let me ask you a different way, you guys can edit that. So, Matt, make a note: Should women in leadership, or should women in life, be competitive with one another?

Jamie Cochran 31:34

I don’t see why not. I think it’s competition amongst women gets a really negative view, but I think that there’s a difference between being competitive, which is a good thing, because if we’re competing, we’re making each other better for that, but also being okay with the fact that I can compete doesn’t mean I have to win. I do stuff all the time that’s for the competitive nature, that other people are better than me and stronger than me and faster than me, and just different, that’s okay. I think it’s when we’re competitive, if our ego is in check, we’re more likely to look at those situations as the competitiveness here is just making us all better. I’m not competing with you because I don’t want to see you win. I’m competing with you so we can both cross the finish line, we can both get to where we want to be and be better as a result of

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 32:20

1. I absolutely agree with you. I think it’s one of the biggest myths. You know, there’s a handful of myths and misconceptions about women in leadership, and a few of those. Number one is this idea that women shouldn’t be competitive, right? You should be the quote nice girl. It’s not good to compete with your fellow teammate, and in my mind, that’s the only way we get better. You don’t want people in the arena with you that aren’t going to bring up your game.

Jamie Cochran 32:51

Yeah,

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 32:51

I can win, you can win, and you better believe I try to beat you, but if I don’t, great, it’s something for me to get better at and learn, but when that happens, it seems to come with a title, for example, oh, she’s again too much, and frankly, if we continue that narrative, it is really going to deteriorate our ability to lead and also the ability to work within a team, I think for individuals that are not involved in the leadership conversation,

Jamie Cochran 33:25

I think you are one of the best examples of this, because I can tell I follow you, we’ve been friends, you’re a competitive person, you want to win, of course you do, that’s evident in the way that you live your life, and yet in the same breath, you are such a champion of other women and a champion to want other women to win. I remember when I called Jocko, and I was like, “Hey, I’m thinking about bringing someone out for this health panel. Do you have any ideas? And he’s like, “You should talk to Gabrielle, and I thought, “She’s there’s no shot, she doesn’t know me, there’s no shot, she’s gonna come and do this. And I emailed you, and immediately you were in, and not only were you in, you showed up, you participated in the whole thing, and then afterwards you didn’t know me. You were a massive champion of what we were building at Echelon Front for the Women’s Assembly, of my own health and my journey there. That to me is the example of what we should be doing. We can compete all day long, but at the end of the day, I’m going to help you get over that finish line. I’m going to champion you forward. I want other women in my life to win. It doesn’t change my competitiveness to do that. It can be a positive outcome if we’re all thinking of it in that nature. And there’s a difference between potentially women who I think create the myth you’re describing, which is they want to be competitive and they do want to be alone in the arena, and they don’t want to see other women win, that’s not a good scenario. You’ve got to have a mix of both.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 34:43

I really appreciate that. And yes, I want to see other women win, and I even more importantly, I want to see other great women go out and lead.

Jamie Cochran 34:54

Yeah,

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 34:55

we don’t need less leaders, we need more, and I want my kids to be able to. Grow up to have women that they can look up to, and I think that the only way that that works is if we cultivate each other, if we’re there for each other, and you identify shared values, and then you make it happen. Yes, I am in all the time, right? Count me in. You described some ongoing health journey. Can we touch on that. Sure,

Jamie Cochran 35:22

I just.. I just.. let’s call it overcame. I don’t know what you title it in the medical field, but I went through last year some health issues, found out I had thyroid cancer, and was able to take care of that at the end of the year. Just getting through now, the recovery of that.. there was some complications there, but it was definitely a journey, and listen, I recognize my journey was nothing, nothing compared to so many people out there that are getting a cancer diagnosis and having much more difficult journeys than I had. I was very lucky to find it early and to be able to take care of it in mostly a surgical solution, so I was very lucky in that regard.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 36:00

You know, one of the other things I noticed is, so you do have a scar on your neck too, and there’s no covering it, there’s no scarf, any of that kind of hiding it.

Jamie Cochran 36:11

So, Jocko, when I first got the surgery, it looked pretty gnarly, and Jocko was like impressed. He’s like, that looks badass, I think is the way he described it, and I told him I was like, yeah, some friends gave me some scar cream, so we’ll see when it heals, and he was like, you shouldn’t, why would you, why would you get rid of that, and I thought, you know what, it’s the same reason why I’m not, I don’t try too hard to get rid of stretch marks, and the other scars, it tells a story, so I haven’t felt inclined to do anything about it now, because it’s just a part of my journey, I had thyroid cancer, and I had the surgery to remove it, and that’s a reminder to me regularly that I was a lucky one, and a reminder to me to be empathetic, because I know that what I had was much easier than a lot of people that I know that have gone through cancer in their life, very easy process for me, so it’s a constant reminder for me to be grateful.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 37:04

When you told me, I obviously I called you pretty quickly, probably right then and there, and it surprised me your response. It was so level headed. There was zero victim mentality. It was what’s the next thing to execute, and as you know, we still see patients and at strong medical, how do you think you’re able to do that?

Jamie Cochran 37:26

You know, it’s interesting, because the healthcare system, as you probably know, even better than me, is a little bit of a racket. So, my experience, even getting to the diagnosis, was pretty challenging, and it took a long time. It felt like, so I had months and months and months of just kind of not knowing, is it cancer, is it not, waiting for the biopsy. By the time I got the biopsy, in true med, you know, modern terms, I got the results on a Friday evening. So I’m not talking to a doctor, it shows up in my MyChart, and all I get is a report that says positive for malignancy, you know, thyroid papillary cancer. Now, in the modern world, I could throw that into AI quick and have it give me a readout, so I at least had something to ground me. But I think our instinct in that moment, at least for me, was that that first shock of, did I just say, did that just say positive for cancer? That was like that initial hit, because I’ve been an echelon front for 13 years, I practice this idea of detachment constantly. I’ve had a ton of opportunities to really get good at detachment. I really tried to anchor to that in that moment. I read that report and I thought, okay, cool, we don’t know. I haven’t talked to the doctor. I don’t know what the plan is. Let’s reserve all of that emotional response till we get some answers, and by the time I got answers, when you’re detached, I got the answers that gave me some confidence that this was going to be something that I could work through. So it was less around something that was innate in me and a lot more around my exposure to this idea of detachment for over a decade of learning in those moments, and the small moments, insignificant ways to detach. So, when the big moments come, and you get something like this, I could take that breath and detach and say, “Okay, we’re not going to get emotional here. There is a pathway, there is a solution. We’re going to just work towards whatever that solution ends up being.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 39:17

How do you think that you would have responded 10 years ago,

Jamie Cochran 39:21

totally different, totally different. I think about the.. I think about, so six years ago, my husband – we share in this experience. My husband was a former SEAL. He jumped out of planes, did all sorts of crazy stuff. He’s, you know, he’s never injured, never hurt, nothing. And six years ago, he was stepping off the back of a truck, holding a mirror, and the mirror hit the bottom of this tow hitch on the truck, and the mirror shattered, and a huge piece of glass goes through his wrist. I think about myself 13 years ago, panic, I would have panicked. I don’t know that I could have handled this situation. Blood mirror, you know. Shatters everywhere, three kids in the driveway panicking, but because I’d been practicing it in like small ways, my kid says something and my instinct is to react, and I go, no, detach, or little, you know, you get an email from a client that you want to respond back to, or you get that frustration, detach. I’d been building the muscle of detachment, the skill of detachment, so in that moment I was able to keep my emotions in check, and I think about that situation. My husband, who is, you know, was a seal, practiced detachment as well. He was well prepared, he was calm, that allowed me to be calm. He, you know, put pressure on the wound. He was like, “We need a tourniquet because we’re detached. I’m making quick decisions. We put a belt on there. He’s like, man, we have to go, we can’t wait for the ambulance. Got it? Get in the car. We’re making all these decisions that we would not have been able to make had it not been for this detached, calm space in a really difficult situation. This was life or death. He was minutes away when we got to the hospital, a bleeding out. So I think about all the time I had leading up to to practice it, then I get this big opportunity to practice it in a real way when it mattered, when that mattered big time. And then I had six years after that. So I get a little report on a Friday night, and I’m like, got it, cool, I’ve got this muscle detachment, we’re gonna lean on that. There’s no need to get emotional here, we’re going to find out what the next steps are. We’re going to make these iterative steps towards whatever the long-term plan and solution

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 41:26

1. And what I’m hearing you say is that yes, you practice it in the moment, but because in training you’ve practiced it so much that during game time you were able to call on those past experiences. Yep, how do you practice detachment?

Jamie Cochran 41:44

So, I think the first thing people need to do is they need to understand two things: they’re red flags. So, all of us have something that indicates to us that we’re feeling emotional. Some people stall, some people get a pit in their stomach, some people they feel their heart fluttering past, but there’s something physical, typically or mentally, that tells you, “Hey, you’re getting emotional here. You can feel it, and if you can really think for yourself, “What are my red flags? You’re better prepared. And the second thing you need to do is, you need to be aware of the situations in which you are most likely to get emotional. For some people, that’s work, that might be like dealing with a particular person at work. You know that when you’re dealing with that person, you tend to be more emotional. For some people, works fine, and where they really struggle is when they come home with their family or little kids, and they struggle with that emotional pull that they have. And so, I think once you know what your red flags are, and the situations you’re likely to be more emotional in, you can then create a plan for detaching, that can be taking a breath, that can be, you know, taking a step back in the situation. Sometimes, in conversations, I recommend when people are feeling excitable, or if I’m having an argument with my husband, which is pretty rare, I might even take a little step back of that situation, because just a little bit of that physical detachment helps. My 17 year old, one of my favorite ways to detach is to legitimately give myself a timeout and say, hey, listen, this isn’t the kind of conversation I want to have, let’s come back to this later when I’m feeling a little bit less emotional to have this conversation with you. I’ll remove myself from this situation, it’s, you know, respond all, see answers in red, all caps, and then just taking your hands off the computer and saying this isn’t going to have the impact I think it’s going to have. It’s going to be a negative outcome. So you take that moment, get a cup of coffee, come back, rewrite this. We have to have a plan for detachment, and we have to have 123, things that we can do in those moments, and then just practice it constantly in all the little tiny ways we get an opportunity to practice it. You and I travel a lot, lot of opportunities for me to practice detaching when flights are delayed or people are losing their mind in the airport. Those are moments where I go, okay, remain calm, remain detached. I don’t make good decisions in this state, I’ve got to be detached from them in order to make the right decision in this moment.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 43:59

And would you say that it’s really important to write it down for the other leaders that you teach, as opposed to perhaps initially having it in the back of their mind.

Jamie Cochran 44:08

Yes, that is a really effective thing. Anything that is worthy of accomplishing should be written down at some point. There’s probably some science behind it. You’d know better than I do of the act of writing something down, and just that accountability it creates for yourself. So, funny story with my daughter, she’s – she was 10 at the time, and she was coming home after school feeling emotional, as young girls can feel. And we had a couple days in a row where I was getting, you know, a little bit of tears, a little bit of emotion that wasn’t normal for her, and so I said, okay, we got to figure out how you’re gonna, you know, work through this. So we took a whiteboard marker, and on her mirror I was like, we gotta have a plan. What’s the first step in your plan to detach when you come home and you feel emotional that you can do? And she thought about it, and she was like, I could take a break, and I was like, yeah, you could take a little nap, you could lay down, you could take your dog for a walk. So she wrote that. On our mirror, and then number two was eat a snack, and I was like, dude, everyone feels better when we eat a snack, sounds good. And then number three was jump on the trampoline, and I was like, that’s great, outside fresh air, physical, you know, exertion. And so she wrote that plan down on her mirror, and for the next week or so, as she came home and maybe felt those emotions creep up. She followed the plan. She just enacted the plan, and she found that at the end of that, she could keep her emotions in check. She could get through that emotional tornado that was happening, and the seas were calm. So, I think we as leaders need to have that plan and have the thing, the steps we’re going to do in those emotional moments ready to go, and in our back pocket, written down to create that accountability, so we can detach in those moments more effectively.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 45:48

What about the leaders that are avoidant,

Jamie Cochran 45:52

avoidant in what way?

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 45:54

There are individuals, whether they’re in a leadership position, or just on teams, or even in homes, where, as opposed to getting amped up, they just totally shut down.

Jamie Cochran 46:06

Yeah,

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 46:07

and they avoid the conversation, avoid the work, avoid the action necessary.

Jamie Cochran 46:13

Yeah, so that’s where this other principle we teach comes into place, which is one of my favorite things, called default aggressive, or bias for action. What we know is that problems don’t get better with time. They don’t, so if we have an avoidant personality, which is meaning, hey, this problem is arising, and I just kind of see how this plays out, it’s likely that we’re giving up our control to actually impact that problem. So the best thing that we can do is first attach. Let’s make sure we’re not making these emotional and ego driven decisions, but then we have to be default aggressive and have a bias for taking an iterative step towards solving that problem. So, sometimes people are avoidant because they fear the whole of the problem is feels overwhelming, and so I think what we have to do in those moments is that the whole of the problem? We need to look at that through a clear view, and then take an iterative step, just one step towards solving that problem, just a little baby step. Then reassess. Okay, we made that decision. What’s going on now? Okay, cool. Now we’re going to make another decision, but we have to be default aggressive at making those iterative steps along the way to eventually solve the whole of the problem, avoiding things only makes things worse. That’s not a good outcome. Have you ever been in a situation where there is a leader or someone in a leadership position that has this personality trait of avoidant? Yes, we call it like a leadership vacuum, where everyone’s kind of looking around for someone to make a decision, someone to make a call, and you’re looking at the leader, thinking, what are we doing? Like, what is the action that we’re supposed to be taking? I’m lucky at Echelon Front, because we have – we’re surrounded by default, aggressive leaders. Jocko, for as much as he talks in the world, and that’s what – how he makes his living – he doesn’t talk in our meetings, he listens. But when there is that moment where there’s a little bit of that vacuum, that void, he, because he’s been listening this whole time, taking in the intel, hearing different perspectives, he is ready to step in and make that decisive, decisive decision in that moment. So I think I’ve worked with people before where they struggle to make those decisions, and the struggle is always coming from this fear that the decision I’m making isn’t the right one, we can avoid that by simply making a smaller decision towards the bigger goal, because then we get to assess, was that the right call, are we moving in the right direction, and if we’re not, we have time to rewrite the ship and get us pointing in the right direction.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 48:39

What are the top three things that leaders do not do well, or mistakes that you see over and over again.

Jamie Cochran 48:49

Top three things that leaders do that are negative.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 48:54

Yeah,

Jamie Cochran 48:54

I think, I think for me one of the big ones is we make excuses and we cast blame. I think it’s really integral in our human nature to cast blame onto other people, and to blame the market, to blame our team, to blame my boss, to whatever blame people and circumstances and things for the problems that we’re facing. And when we do that, we give up our control as leaders to solve them. So I think that’s the first thing, is that instinct to cast blame and point fingers. The second is I think we overestimate the strength of our relationships.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 49:27

I love, I’ve heard you say that before. I’m certainly we get to that,

Jamie Cochran 49:30

and you know where I think we do this the most, which seems odd is within our families. I think because our relationships are already established, we just overestimate, overestimate the need to nurture them and maintain them. So, whether that’s with your spouse or your kids or your parents, I think again, because they’re well established, we think they’re solid, we think they’re good, and yet we’re constantly doing little withdrawals in the way we interact with the people around. Us, especially the people we love the most, that’s putting friction within our relationship, that’s creating even a small sense of resentment, becomes cancer, and becomes chasms between me and another person. So, I think in all of our life, we’re overestimating the strength of our relationship with the people that we’re dealing with on a day to day, and we have to, as leaders, be thinking constantly when I interact with someone, I am interacting with them with the expectation that I don’t have as much leadership capital as I think I do. I’m in the red, and this interaction needs to be a positive drop in that bank to build in our leadership capital together.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 50:34

How does someone go about doing that? The idea of this leadership capital,

Jamie Cochran 50:38

yeah, we teach leadership capital is this idea that you have a bank and I have a bank, and every interaction that we have is either a deposit into your bank or withdrawal, and what we, the reason why we overestimate these relationships is because every small positive interaction that we have is a little bit of a deposit into your bank, but the one time I step on your toes, I create, I take credit for a plan that you created, I say something that I shouldn’t have, I argue, I tell you you’re wrong, whatever it is, all of those things are massive withdrawals. We underestimate how big those withdrawals are, and so oftentimes we have less capital, or we’re in the red when we’re dealing with people, so is what we teach people to build in that relationship. Capital is a framework, we call it trust, listen, respect, influence, and care, and all that means is that the strength of our relationship is based on the reciprocal nature of these things, meaning if I want you to trust me, I have to show you first that I trust you. If I want you to listen to me, I have to first listen to you. I have to allow myself to be influenced by you. I have to show you respect. I hear a lot of people that say, well, they need to earn my respect. No, I’m going to show up and I’m going to show you respect out the gate, and if I show you respect, I have a higher likelihood of gaining your respect, and ultimately, if I want us to have a strong relationship, you need to know that I care about you, that I care about your success, I care about how you contribute to this mission. So, if I can give those things first, I have a higher likelihood of gaining those things and building in that capital that we need to achieve whatever the mission

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 52:22

is, and I know in echelon front, you guys probably have very clear communication, you know where you stand with someone. I’m sure that there’s a framework for that. The challenge, and I’d love for you to help me think about this differently, is that I might not know where my relationship capital is with you, and you might not know where it is with me, because of the way that we relate is different.

Jamie Cochran 52:49

So I love this conversation, because I have this conversation, particularly not to say this is a generalization, but particularly with women who feel like sometimes their intent is not being received in the way that they want it to be, and so my feedback to them is, listen, your intent means nothing, means nothing. So, in this situation, if we’re communicating, oftentimes that communication breakdown is based on, and you had mentioned the framework, we call it tone, tact, timing, and delivery, that’s our framework, and the first part of that is tone, which a lot of people don’t realize that again your intent when it comes to tone means nothing. So, if I think we have a great relationship, I can send you an email with this positive lens, hey Gabrielle, and I can write this email, and I’ve got this whole positive intent, but if I stepped on your toes in a meeting last week, or I took credit for something that you were like, ‘Hey, that was supposed to be mine, or I did something in our relationship that I’m not aware of, and you have friction with me, you’re going to read the same words, the same email with a totally different viewpoint through that negative lens. And we do this with clients, we will read the same email from two different perspectives, and you get to see how the same words mean two different things. What that tells me is that our ability to communicate effectively is intricately tied to our relationship, because if we have a great relationship, you’re going to assume good intent, and if we don’t, you’re going to read it through your lens. And the reality of this situation now is the way that you read it, how you receive that message, and if that was negative, that’s now the truth of what we’re dealing with. Doesn’t matter what my intent was, if you received it negatively, that’s now the truth and the reality of what we’re dealing with, which is so much harder to overcome. So, as we teach effective communication, we think about how do you manage your tone, what can you do if you don’t, if you know you have friction with this person, maybe you’re not sending an email or a text where tone can be misconstrued. Maybe you’re doing a better job of picking up a phone or calling, or calling someone, or going and meeting them face to face, where you can control that a little bit better. The tact is like the words we’re using, if you know that this may have, may have the potential of going the wrong. Way you can choose words more selectively and be more thoughtful in how you communicate the timing. I don’t want to have a conversation with my husband about something important in our lives at 1030 at night when I’m tired and he’s having after 8pm All that, yes, yes, we can wait, and in the same way that I don’t want to go talk to my boss if he’s preparing for a big event or a board meeting with the next day, like that’s not the right timing. And then, lastly, that delivery. How are we delivering the message? We teach our clients to deliver that through this ownership lens in how we communicate when we have things to share with people, and that really can help us deliver that message in an effective way.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 55:36

And what’s the framework for delivering the message?

Jamie Cochran 55:39

Problem impact ownership solutions. So, if I’m going to have a conversation with you, and we’re going to discuss maybe something that you did, or that I did, or something that the team did to fail, I’m going to start with, hey, here’s the problem, here’s the root cause of the problem, here’s the impact to you, it’s not the impact to me, hey, here’s the problem we’re dealing with, and I know this impacts you, because if I can point the impact on how this is impacting you, your wall of defensiveness is likely to go down. Then I have to take ownership of it, whatever the problem is. Hey, we fail on this deadline, we didn’t deliver this product to the client on time. I know that for you that caused a lot of stress, and listen, this was my fault, because I didn’t better communicate with you, the deadline we didn’t have some check-ins along the way, that’s on me. I’m gonna fix that going forward by doing x, y, and z, and now we get to the solutions. So that’s the framework we teach for any conversation. I use it with my kids, I use it with my husband to take ownership in a meaningful way and have conversations that are likely to have more positive outcomes. Is there a way to end conversations? I think the way to end conversations is typically asking a really good, earnest question of the other person. For us, you know, if I’m, if I’m having a conversation and we’ve talked about several things that we need to make sure we’re aligned on we’re going to use a tool we call the Read Back, which is one of my favorite tools. That is a great way for me to say, hey, really quick, can I get a read back? I’d love to understand if I missed anything of importance. You have to remember it’s always a test for you and not the other person. So, if I say, hey, can I get a read back, I’d love to understand. I want to make sure you understood me. That now becomes a test for you, and you’re likely to feel defensive, but if it’s a test for me, hey, I miscommunicate a lot. We talked about a lot of things. I want to make sure I didn’t miss anything of importance. Can I get a quick read back? That’s a great way for me to ensure some alignment there. So I think that’s a great way to end a conversation, is with that quick read back, that two second effort to make sure we’re aligned the other way is if you’re talking about something difficult or hard. I would end that if I’ve been talking, you know, this this time and presenting this with an open-ended, earnest question to give them an opportunity to properly respond.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 57:55

How do you know when it’s time to just cut it off, meaning there’s no coming back from the damage of the relationship.

Jamie Cochran 58:02

Yeah, I try to stop that before I get there. I had given the example earlier with my son, where you know some days I feel like it’s his goal to see if he can get mom over the edge, and he’s a great kid, but sometimes you’re just like, man, I don’t know how what you woke up with today. I try to not let myself get to the point where now we’re in this conversation, and now we’re past that point of being able to come off that ledge. I don’t want to be falling off a cliff with it,

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 58:26

but from a not from a communication standpoint, but let’s say obviously this is all about leadership, and one of the things that I love and have heard you say that at the core of many of our life problems is a leadership problem, and leadership, when it comes to friendship relationships, you can coach and bring people forward, but at a point in time there is no coming back. You break up with your high school sweetheart, the employee doesn’t work out there, there’s probably a moment where you have to take a postmortem look at this, is what happened, and there’s now no going forward.

Jamie Cochran 59:09

Yeah, no, thank you for that clarification. I think in those moments I am still ending that relationship through the lens of ownership, that’s what’s hard for people, even when we get to a point where, hey, I’ll use firing someone as an example. If I’m firing someone, we have gotten to the point now where we have met that threshold you’re describing. I’m still taking ownership of that. I’m still looking at that situation and saying, man, there’s a bunch of things I could have done that maybe could have avoided the situation. Now we’re here, I still have to take ownership of what happened next. I have to take ownership of what the rest of the team needs. This is a relationship that can no longer continue for x, y, and z reasons. Despite the fact that I recognize how I contributed to this problem, we have now hit that threshold where my effort to support you or help you is now detracting from. The energy I need to be giving to the rest of my team, so that’s when I start to define that line. Leif and Jocko wrote a chapter in Dichotomy of Leadership called When to Mentor, When to Fire, and that was the idea that for most situations mentorship and leadership is the solution. That doesn’t mean you don’t get to those thresholds where you have to end those relationships, and that’s the, that’s the last of it, but I can still do that through the final lens of ownership. Hey, this is, this is my fault that we didn’t get to where we needed to be, and I’m sorry that this is what needs to happen next, but we can’t continue in this fashion.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 1:00:34

And you founded the Women’s Leadership Assembly, and which I’m really excited, because it’s coming up january 5 through seventh, that’s right, in Palm Springs, 2027 I will be there. What was the missing piece in leadership in the leadership development space for women?

Jamie Cochran 1:00:52

So I had this conversation with Jocko years ago during one of our muster events, and I talked to him, and I thought, you know, should we do something specific for women, because at the time 90% of our attendees for these big conferences we host, called the muster, were men, and so I thought, should we do something specific for women? And in this conversation, Jocko responded to me, and I’ll be honest with you, at the time he responded, I thought, hmm, I don’t know if I agree with him, which is rare, but his response was the same leadership principles apply, the same things apply, and I had the thought process in my mind of like, he just doesn’t get it, he doesn’t get how different it is for women and how different it is for particularly working moms, and he just doesn’t understand the challenges, the unique challenges that you and I face as women, but as I thought about it the next day, listening to him and Leif on stage. I thought he’s right, he’s not saying that our circumstance isn’t different, he’s saying that despite our circumstances, the principles of extreme ownership still apply. So then the conversation became, how do we break down the barrier then for women who may not feel as inclined to follow or listen to us, because these are combat and military principles, and that there was that barrier there. So it was actually a 21 year old intern who was working for us, her name is a D, and she said, What if we did like a once a month webinar, and we taught the principles of elite of extreme ownership, but we took out the hardcore, like combat military component, and I was hesitant because this felt kind of outside of my scope, but I thought, all right, let’s try it. So we did our first women’s assembly, probably four years ago now, and maybe six years ago now, because it was during Covid, and we did the first women’s assembly webinar, and we’ve been running a free webinar every month since, and it was three years into that that the community started saying, “What about our own event? And so that’s where the Women’s Assembly was born, and we teach the same principles of Extreme Ownership. We still teach some of the military components, but we soften it a little bit just to break down the barrier to allowing women to see that these principles apply in their lives with their unique experiences in the same way they would for my male counterparts,

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 1:03:07

and it’s wise, you know, you’re right, there is no difference, the circumstances might be different, but leadership is leadership, and the lens at which we view leadership, there are unique challenges for women, per se. It may be situational. Is there something that you see often in young female leaders?

Jamie Cochran 1:03:33

In young female leaders, I think what I see most often is their growing confidence. It’s that initial lack of confidence.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 1:03:42

I totally agree with you. Yeah,

Jamie Cochran 1:03:43

and I think that’s what we can help young women learn, is to build in that confidence. And I will tell you, I think the best way to build in confidence is to adopt this mindset of extreme ownership. I really do. I think that gives us this sense of control. If I can show up and say, hey, I screwed that up, that’s totally my fault. Here’s what I’m going to do to solve it next time, like that is confident. And if I could teach my daughter this idea of ownership, and I’ve seen her do it, it’s incredible to watch you see a little bit of that confidence grow. I also am a big believer in, and probably you are too, with the physical discipline aspect. We do a lot of that in our household together as a family. We try to instill discipline in our lives. My kids all play sports for a long time. My daughter trained jiu jitsu, which I think is a great way to build in confidence, but any sport can give you a little bit of that boost. But I think the discipline aspect really helps, particularly women anchor to something when they’re feeling those those feelings of insecurities,

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 1:04:45

you know, obviously I’ve been seeing patients for a very long time, and this is what I’ve seen, is that these younger girls coming up, they, they really struggle with building confidence, and part of it is maybe not necessarily relating to their own internal. Experience, and not knowing how to process it, as their bodies are growing and changing, and they feel maybe a little more uncomfortable, or are comparing themselves to other people. The online space has drastically changed this, and I’m wondering if that makes leadership more challenging.

Jamie Cochran 1:05:19

Of course, they.. I mean, what’s the common saying? Comparison is a thief of joy. I mean, how, how much time is spent for young minds who are developing and growing in this new space of constantly seeing what is being portrayed as perfection. You’re seeing your friends living these perfect lives, doing these perfect things, you know, and so awful for young girls, but the filters and all the other things in there that they create this different sense for themselves in reality. I can imagine how hard it would be for a young girl to build in that confidence. For me, for my daughter, we don’t have social media, we set that standard for our kids a long time ago, because I don’t think she’s capable. I’m, I’m an adult, and I’m not capable sometimes of not having that comparison aspect for myself. So, we don’t do social media, and we really try to do things. We take my.. we’re going backpacking this weekend. We’re taking her back. She’s the first time she’s going to carry her own tint. We try to help our kids see that they are capable of doing things, and in those moments when we struggle through something, when we get up and do an early morning workout, when we’re pushing past, when we don’t want to do something, we do it anyways. That little bit of discipline habits we start to create, that will be their anchor, when everything else in their mind and the world around them is telling them to feel this sense of insecurity, they can anchor to know I’m totally tough enough and strong enough and capable enough.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 1:06:46

Do you think you’d mentioned habits, and as these things come up, are there a handful of compounding effects that improve a leader’s performance?

Jamie Cochran 1:06:57

I, yes, yes, and I think that there’s a laundry list of them, I’ve said before, like all of these things are skills, but like if you can learn to detach, that’s a skill that’s a compounding effect that grows in your ability to do that effectively. If you can take ownership, that’s a compounding skill that creates an instinct for you to look at situations and say, oh, that’s my fault, here’s how I can contribute to that, in the same way that you know, years ago, my husband would get my boys up to work out, and you know, for the first couple years of doing it, they’re, you know, Dad, here we go, some days were good, some days were negative, and now they’re at a lacrosse tournament this weekend, and I’m getting a text from my son, the Cochrans got up and worked out, and it’s my two boys and my two nephews are the only two or the only four of the 28 kids who are getting up to work out, because that is now a habit they’ve created. So I think that’s the disciplined aspect, and we can create discipline in every aspect of our life, detaching, ownership, physical discipline, taking care of ourselves. If we can cultivate all of those different types of discipline, we are ready in the moments when we have to make difficult decisions to actually make the right decision, because that habit’s already been formed.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 1:08:08

Do you think that the discipline is one of the best parenting hacks, for lack of a better word, that you’ve used?

Jamie Cochran 1:08:14

Yes, of course. And it takes the reason why it goes out the window is one, parents aren’t willing to do it with their kids, you have to be willing. If you’re going to uphold them to a disciplined standard, you have to be willing to do it yourself. I think one of the biggest reasons my boys get up and work out now, whether my husband’s there or not, is because he’s always done it with them, and so that is that connection to I’m willing to do the same thing, and I think as parents in our homes it’s the best thing we can do to set our kids up for success, because at some point they’re going to be out in the world on their own, and if they can just anchor to the discipline habits that they have formed previously, they’re going to be able to work through those emotional, you know, the emotional turmoil, the mental turmoil that happens in those young years when we’re trying to figure ourselves out,

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 1:09:03

so you would say discipline is the number one parenting hack.

Jamie Cochran 1:09:06

I think so. Yeah, and we’re not, we’re not perfect at it by any means, but we really try to cultivate that sense of discipline within our kids. It’s important to us.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 1:09:14

And then it circles back and it bites you. I’m going to share a very quick story. My now five year old was four, he just turned five, and we cold plunge every in, by the way, I’ve got a swimsuit for you, every evening we cold plunge, and this day was just unusually late, it was, it was actually really late, it was 8o’clock and Leonidas is out there, and he’s like, come on, Mom, let’s go, let’s cold plunge, and I’m just thinking, brother, I have had such a busy day. The idea of getting into this cold plunge is just not ideal. He’s four, okay? We just say no to your four year old, so of course I end up cold plunging. It was epic, but it was this moment where my four year old’s calling me out on a discipline.

Jamie Cochran 1:10:00

First of all, your level of discipline has now surpassed my level of discipline, because I am straight fight or flight in cold water, and that is not a habit that I have cultivated yet, and I don’t know if it’s ever going to be a habit I were to cultivate, but you’re right, it does, it does bite you in some, in some of those instances, but it’s so, it’s so good, it’s so good for them. I would probably redact my last statement. Discipline is a close second to ownership. Ownership always has to be the first piece, but discipline in your family is so critical.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 1:10:31

How does a.. how do you impart ownership on kids?

Jamie Cochran 1:10:35

It is the, in my opinion, the best gift you can give your kids is to teach them how to think with this mindset of ownership, because

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 1:10:43

I don’t think I’ve taught my children they’re really good at understanding physical disciplines, but I don’t think that I’ve really taught them ownership.

Jamie Cochran 1:10:51

There’s a lot of ways you can do this. So, one of my favorite ways, as my kids were growing up, is, you know, when, when have you ever walked in and, like, okay, milk spilling on the floor, and you’re like every day, what happened, and they’re like, the milk spilled, like, right, it’s not in our instinct, like, the milk got itself out and then tipped over and is now spilling on the floor, like, your kids aren’t born with this instinct to take ownership of problems, they just aren’t, so I use earnest questions to get them to the place of taking ownership, so a great, great example, my daughter’s

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 1:11:19

question,

Jamie Cochran 1:11:20

an earnest question, How do

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 1:11:21

you define that?

Jamie Cochran 1:11:21

Not a leading question. I’m not trying to manipulate them. It’s an open-ended question that’s helping them to.. you’re kind of showing them the mirror. So, what that might look like is my son will come home and say, you know, with that emotional state, like, I didn’t know that our Spanish homework was due today, and I got a zero, and he’s frustrated, and so I’m gonna.. I’m gonna reflect his emotion. Oh, that’s got to be frustrating, but I’m going to diminish that a little bit. Ask some earnest questions. What are you going to do about it? Well, I don’t know. She, you know, and he’s going to have the emotional reaction. And I say, okay, well, let’s think through some options. What, what could be an option? He’s like, she’s not going to take it. I’m like, well, have you ever talked to her about it? I don’t know. Could you have that conversation? Is that something you think you could do. Yeah, I could probably talk to her. And now we’re like, slowly motions are falling. What would that sound like? How would you, how would you have that conversation? And you let him kind of role-play a little bit. Now you’re having this conversation, you’re giving little tweaks and adjustments. And then the goal is he goes and has this conversation, and if you’ve prepped him right, he now is taking ownership with his teacher, which I’ll tell you is unique, because teachers aren’t used to kids, especially an eighth grader, coming and taking ownership for not realizing that he had missed a deadline, and I’m making sure that when he has that conversation, the conversation is, “Hey, Miss So-and-so, I didn’t realize that the deadline that was on me, I need to make better, I need to make better notes to understand when these things are due. Is there anything I can do to make this up? And he’s going to take ownership for missing it. It’s not her fault, it’s his fault. What that typically has provided to my kids is the benefit, because the teacher, not used to that, usually goes well, okay, you can turn it in for partial credit, or yeah, okay, give it to me today, and we’ll get it done, and they get to see the outcome of what ownership gives them, which is the control to make decisions in their life. So, whenever we come across any challenge, I’m asking the earnest questions to get them to the point of thinking, How can you take ownership of this problem? And I’ll tell you, it’s a long campaign, and I’ve got the text. I saved this text message because we had a situation with my son, and he got frustrated, which is normal for a 16 year old. I’m expecting that behavior based on the circumstance. All I did was take ownership and leave it there. Hey, I’m so sorry, I was confused on the plan, that’s my fault. And 20 minutes later, he sent me the first text, which would have been good enough, which was, “Hey, Mom, I’m sorry I got frustrated. I shouldn’t act that way. I know you’re just trying to help me. Boom. I’m like, “Okay, we’re good. And then 10 minutes later, he’s like, “This stuff you teach actually works. And I thought, “Okay, parenting gold. And he then goes on to explain how ownership made him feel better in this, in this moment when he took ownership of his attitude, and I thought, okay, I am done, my parenting job is over. And then I was quickly reminded how this is a campaign, you have to be patient with the people around you, because the next day he couldn’t find his lacrosse gloves, and it was my fault, clearly, because I removed them, and I was like, all right, we’re back to square one. So, I think in all those moments I’m looking for those opportunities to help my kids see that the problems they’re facing are not their teachers, not their friends, not these other outside circumstances. It’s you. You can control this. Maybe you didn’t, can’t control what happened. You can control what you do next, for sure.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 1:14:38

And the earnest questions, which sounds to me as if they’re open-ended questions.

Jamie Cochran 1:14:42

They’re open-ended, and I’m not leading you somewhere. I’m earnestly asking for your opinion. I’m asking with that sense of earnestly. Hey, I really want to understand your perspective. I really want to understand what you’re thinking. Those earnest questions help diminish the emotional reaction that people are having.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 1:15:00

So I’m hearing you say number one, own it all, whatever it is, good or bad, probably. If it’s bad, it’s your fault. If it’s good, it’s a collective effort. Number two, discipline, get to get to discipline, and to actually get to ownership, you have to ask the right questions. You know, my final question is, how do you know, or what is the first sign that leadership is going, that you’ve exhausted your capacity,

Jamie Cochran 1:15:29

that you’ve exhausted your capacity? In what way?

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 1:15:31

For example, someone might start out a really good leader, potentially they go into the new job, they’re doing great, or they start a new school, and over time, depending the capacity of that person, you start to see fall off, maybe motivation goes or discipline goes, but in order to avoid those hard conversations, which ideally, if you’re a good functioning team, you’re not getting to the place where you’re like, man, we need to talk, there’s probably signs along the way that this person or an individual’s leadership capacity is going to the wayside.

Jamie Cochran 1:16:08

Yeah, that makes sense. I think you start to see that, and if you’re taking that honest self-assessment, if your ego is in a box, your box, you’re in control, you’re willing to look in the mirror and to recognize what you’re doing and the and the signs you’re getting from the people around you, if you can take that on a self assessment, you’re going to see signs as to whether or not your leadership is a net positive or a net negative, and those signs are going to be how people react to things that you have to say, are people doing the things that you’re asking of them, are they coming to you, and looking and seeking for your advice, are they executing and succeeding within their role? You’re going to be able to see pretty easily if people are, if your leadership is effective. You can see it in the way that people interact with you. You can only see it if you’re looking at it through that lens of that self assessment. I’m going to look at this really critically. We say brutally honest, and I’m going to seek that feedback. I think one challenge, particularly for women, is we always say we want feedback until the feedback is potentially negative, and so we have to be willing, as a leader, whether you’re a seasoned leader or a new leader, to ask for feedback and be really open-minded to the feedback that we get to see the feedback as a gift, we now got information we didn’t previously have that we can now use to make better decisions. So we understand if our capacity is going down by the way that people are interacting with us, we can then ask for good feedback and be open-minded to how we, what people respond with to make those adjustments to help grow in that capacity and get us back to where we want to be,

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 1:17:44

and then you get to a place where you invite it. It’s a really good skill.

Jamie Cochran 1:17:48

Yeah, you just have to be, you have to be willing and ready to take not just the good but the bad too.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 1:17:54

And I usually just say, start with the bad, and then you end on a good note. It’s kind of like having dessert, yeah, your broccoli first, then you get to have dessert. I will see you january 5 through seventh at Palm Springs. Tell us a little bit about the Women’s Assembly.

Jamie Cochran 1:18:08

The Women’s Assembly is a two-day – we run a free webinar every month that you can come check us out and participate.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 1:18:13

I have,

Jamie Cochran 1:18:14

yes, you have taught on there before, which is so fun. The Women’s Assembly that we do, that’s live, is a two-day leadership conference, we do early morning workouts, so you get that discipline optional. I would highly recommend it. And then we spend two days of intense leadership development. What’s unique about the Women’s Assembly, compared to other events we do at Echelon Front, is that we bring in awesome guests like yourself. We have four keynote speakers coming to this one with unique perspectives and experiences to share, we’ve got four women that are sharing in these micro interviews, and then we go deep into the principles of extreme ownership and leave people with some applicable things they can go back and take into the world.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 1:18:51

And I highly recommend it. I love the women’s assembly, and what I really love about it is I’m very adverse to a lot of woo woo. I no offense, I don’t want to talk about essential oils, even if they’re great. I want to know, and I want to get down to the nitty gritty. I run businesses, I run a family. I want to know how to get the best out of the teams I’m running, and frankly, myself, and it’s extraordinary. So, I can’t wait to see you, and it’s just gonna be a plus.

Jamie Cochran 1:19:26

Thank you so much. This has been awesome. Appreciate it. And I’m excited to have you back this year. I know our audience is desperate to have you back, so it’s gonna be awesome. Jamie Cochran, thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank you. Okay, great job. Okay, we’ve got just a few questions. Oh, my ass,

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 1:19:43

you did a great.