What would you say to someone who’s afraid of dying?
0:05
Not much. I saw my mom. Her eyes were so afraid.
0:13
So I I decided when I saw her eyes in the end of her life that I was not going to be afraid of that.
0:20
My guest is Elena Brower, best-selling author, poet, meditation teacher,
0:25
hospice volunteer, and now a candidate for Buddhist chaplency. The letting go is the whole practice.
0:32
Letting go of the body, letting go of the mind, letting go of the attachments to the people that you love. It’s so
0:38
hard. I see how hard it is. Her new book, Hold Nothing, is a guide
0:44
to living fully as a practice with clarity and respect. Very few people
0:50
would actively go to seek out helping someone die well. And so many people are
0:56
dying alone.
1:05
I am speechless that you are here in my
1:11
life. I have learned so much from you
1:18
and to have you on the show to share your experience
1:24
with the world in a world where we are spending billions of dollars trying to
1:31
live longer and escape death which it’s something nobody gets out of.
1:37
Yeah. We spend very little time and very little energy thinking about the end.
1:43
I’ve only just become more comfortable with it since my mom died. That was about eight years ago now. None of us
1:50
actually really consider what it means to die well. Or very few of us anyway.
1:56
And I’ve discovered that this is one of the things that I can do in this world.
2:01
Yeah. Is to help people live well so that they can die well. In full transparency,
2:09
there are a handful of people that I really go to in my life and you and
2:14
James, you’re on that very short list. I sent you a text and you responded with
2:21
this and this is the five remembrances. I am of the nature to grow old. There is
2:29
no way to escape growing old. I am of the nature to have ill health. There is
2:36
no way to escape having ill health. I’m of the nature to die. There is no way to
2:43
escape death. All that is dear to me and everyone I love are of the nature to
2:51
change. There is no way to escape being
2:56
separated from them. And finally, my actions are my only true belongings. My
3:03
actions are the ground upon which I stand and there’s no way to escape the consequences of my actions.
3:09
How can we think about and live well with such
3:16
intense impermanence? I think the way that we live well is by keeping all of this in mind. It’s not to
3:23
kind of yeah that’s coming later some other time. I just experienced um
3:30
learning news of a kid who was 15 who died in a very sudden accident very unexpectedly and that could happen any
3:37
day and I have been I don’t know for the last 5 10 years even more
3:44
I think about what it would be like if today were the day that somebody came knocking or calling and saying your son
3:51
or your partner you know has died. And of course, we may look at that and
3:57
think, well, how morbid, how ridiculous. When actually, it’s one of those things
4:02
that keeps me living very intentionally and carefully my life without a lot of
4:11
ranker, without a lot of dread. I’m ready and I’m going to enjoy this day.
4:18
I’m going to enjoy this moment. Looking at you, I can’t even believe the road that we’ve traveled.
4:24
Years together, many many years. Many years. Probably many lifetimes. Many lifetimes, many moments together.
4:32
Keeping these five remembrances, which by the way are thousands of years old from the Angutara Suta and Sutra Suta.
4:40
Um, Tiknad Han uh did that translation and I learn it from people like Roshi
4:46
Joan Halifax, Frank Ostases, the people who take the time to share what it means
4:51
to really serve, what it means to sit at the bedside of people who are dying, what it means to serve people who are in
4:57
penitentiary, who have, you know, very few resources for healing. And I keep those
5:03
remembrances close because it helps me live my life to the fullest and do my service in all of those realms
5:11
to the fullest. When I was in geriatrics and again you and I do we speak a lot about death and
5:18
I I struggle with the idea of it especially with two little children
5:25
um four and five. And when I went through geriatric training, there was a
5:32
it was full of death. Yeah, there were two kinds of physicians. I
5:38
would say there was on one hand the physician that they were this is what
5:43
they were doing. They were hospice doctors. They were seemingly
5:50
unfaced. Perhaps they were accepting. And then I think that there were doctors like me
5:58
that were afraid and felt very vulnerable to death seeing it.
6:03
Awkward. It didn’t feel inspiring. It felt
6:09
I couldn’t wrap my head around it. Terrifying. Yeah. Terrifying.
6:14
Yeah. That’s how it was for me at first. I don’t know why. I was called to this hospice volunteer training and I took
6:20
it. It was a full weekend, you know. I don’t know, 16, 17 hours. And I then
6:27
started volunteering in hospice. This was several years ago. And I walked in the first few times. And I was so
6:32
afraid. I was so I just it was so awkward. I didn’t know what to do. And I just went in and did whatever I was
6:38
asked to do. And this is a local hospice in the town where I live in five beds.
6:43
It’s nonprofit. So, we’re doing everything. You know, I learned a bunch of rules. You can never
6:48
hand a patient medication. I learned all these rules. I follow them myself. But
6:54
in this kind of a place, it’s like anything goes. Everyone is there to die. When I see somebody being wheeled in, I
7:00
know this is this is the last stop for them. And it’s beautiful. And I have to
7:06
practice not knowing how this is going to go. I have to practice not trying to make
7:12
things perfect for this patient or this family. And I have to just remember life
7:18
and death are very close to each other. What can I do today to make things easier? Maybe it’s dishes. Maybe it’s
7:24
changing a patient’s, you know, basically diaper. Maybe it’s helping to
7:30
serve them a beautiful lunch on a beautiful tray with a little flower. Maybe it’s just cleaning the room as
7:35
they’re in active death process that it it just feels and sounds intense. And I
7:42
can speak for myself and I can speak for you who is listening or watching. Very
7:47
few people would actively go to seek out helping someone die well
7:53
and so many people are dying alone. What are the risks of not being aware of
8:01
our own fragility now? I don’t see it that much in the hospice because these people know that they’re
8:07
coming to die and they’re ready. They are in a state of relative acceptance. Some of them are even choosing medical
8:14
assistance in death which is legal in the state where we are. But when you keep life and death very close, you know
8:22
that you have this very sort of sacred secret teacher death going to keep you
8:28
really awake and aware to what’s happening. when you try and sort of keep
8:34
it at a distance, there is a level of fear that pervades everything and it’s
8:41
so frustrating for folks cuz they can’t let go. And the whole practice, as far
8:46
as I can see, in my very humble and very limited experience of three years, it’s not long, but I’m committed to this for
8:53
the rest of my life. those folks really struggle and it’s hard to watch and it’s
9:00
it’s the letting go is the whole practice. Letting go of the body, letting go of the mind, letting go of
9:07
the attachments to the people that you love. It’s so hard. I see how hard it is. I saw my mom,
9:15
her eyes were so afraid. Yeah. So I I decided when I saw her eyes
9:21
in the end of her life that I was not going to be afraid of that. My question was going to be why not just
9:28
wait? Why not wait and towards the end be afraid and be afraid for a moment and
9:34
avoid it. But there what I’m hearing you say it’s probably where the title of your new
9:41
book comes from. Hold nothing. Yeah. Likely a different way to do it. And
9:46
this is an invitation to let go and come home to yourself.
9:51
I’m committed to this. I’m committed to offering what I know as I learn it about this. It’s very, very brave to day by
10:00
day imagine what it would feel like if this were your last day. This were my
10:06
last day. I think we did okay. The kids fell asleep on me last night. It was just
10:12
We had the best time with Shane. I mean, you know, okay. And every single day now
10:18
because of the presence of this death is like in the marrow of everything that we do.
10:24
We know this because of it. I am really conscious about how I’m approaching
10:30
everything. You know, if you’re listening or watching and you’re thinking about this and how
10:35
uncomfortable it is, what if you were to picture that today is your last day or,
10:40
God forbid, you just got a really harrowing diagnosis. Who are you choosing to put by your side? Now, you
10:47
better be cultivating that friendship or those friendships. Keep those connections alive. I was talking to
10:53
Sierra uh Campbell, my friend, who founded Nurture, and this is her job. She helps folks die. This is her
11:01
full-time job. And she said, “Make sure that you talk about connections, the
11:06
people who you keep close now in this life, and who you would choose if you were going to die soon. Who whom would
11:14
you choose to be there? You know, you’re one of my people for sure.” But that’s what that’s our task. Think about that.
11:22
Cultivate those friendships. Keep those connections alive. It’s wise and
11:27
uncomfortable. Yeah. I wanted to take a moment to let you know about something new we’ve created. It’s called Forever
11:34
Strong Insider and it’s the premium subscription to the Dr. Gabrielle Lion
11:39
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11:44
written summaries with key takeaways to help you retain the most important insights from the show, a community Q&A
11:52
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11:58
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12:03
navigate daily life. Go to forever.supcast.com.
12:08
Let’s keep getting stronger together. We live in a very fast-paced world and I’ve
12:15
again we’ve known each other for years and I’ve watched you do and continue to
12:21
do extraordinary things. In addition to that, you push less. Mhm. I mean, you
12:29
are a worldrenowned meditation teacher. Very early on in our friendship, you
12:37
were traveling. you were going to all these different places and speaking all over the world. Now you could certainly
12:44
do all those things only every now and again, but now it’s different. No, I really love I really love the
12:49
volunteer hours that feeds me. It is very different. And there was a a term
12:55
that I came across a couple of years ago on being an island of coherence. It’s a
13:00
scientific term actually, but I fully took it into my soul and was like, “Wow, what does that actually mean?” and I
13:07
decided that’s what I want to become as long as I’m on that island. Same with Jimmy Shane. Jimmy’s in the uh another
13:14
one of my best friends who’s sitting over here, helped design this beautiful um podcast studio. This book, Hold
13:21
Nothing, has profoundly touched me. I I already ordered uh five copies and I
13:27
will be ordering more. Many things here that are tremendous, but one of which I noticed is letting go
13:34
of your personality. How and why should we even consider that? There are a few things that I’m thinking
13:40
about. The first is sort of the more surface and then there’s a cool dowist teaching that I think is worth
13:45
mentioning. The surface is I spent most of my adult life building up this
13:51
persona personality. I’m a teacher. I travel the world and do
13:57
this thing. I teach yoga and meditation and uh you know I’m a business person. and I have this wonderful business that
14:03
supports my family and many many hundreds of other families. And this letting go of the personality has
14:09
everything to do with getting back to the essence of who we actually are. And
14:15
if we don’t have an answer to that question, who actually are you? Then it might be time to sit still and actually
14:22
practice being an island of coherence. I found Zen Meditation 5 years ago, 2020,
14:28
and was immediately touched by the level of discomfort
14:35
and awkwardness that I felt sitting still, stuck still, and not moving. And
14:41
what I’ve come to understand is not moving is actually the way. Because when we move, we’re moving away from what it
14:48
is that we’re trying to avoid. When I sit still, I can really face it. Ah this
14:55
is what my mind is doing. These are the thoughts that continue to secrete from my mind very naturally. This is how I
15:02
habitually follow said thoughts. And the practice is actually to not follow the
15:08
thought to see the thought being omitted emitted rather from my mind and to not
15:14
follow it to just let it drop. That’s the respectful thing to do for my brain and for my body and for for this island
15:20
of coherence that I want to become. So I let those thoughts go. Then that in turn
15:26
becomes letting the personality go. And that in turn yields somebody who is a force for calm who can walk into a
15:33
situation like uh somebody in active dying process. One of my dear bosses at the hospice,
15:40
Whitney, I love you. She came in the other day and she said, “This person is
15:45
about to begin the active process. I can hear it, feel it, see it.” All of us could, of course. And would you mind
15:52
making the room a little more sacred? She said. And I was like,
15:57
my language, my love language. And I began cleaning. I started with really deep clean of all the surfaces. And then
16:04
I started lighting up little um plants all over the place. I put new flowers
16:09
up. I washed all the voses. Like that I can do. And that we don’t realize that,
16:15
but imagine if you were dying. It’s the end of your life. If you’re in a hospice with maybe one person you know, but
16:21
maybe not nobody that you know, and some little fairy comes around and starts making the flowers fresh and cleaning
16:27
the space so that your transition is a clear one. How about it? Don’t you love
16:34
that idea? I think death really scares me. Yeah. And um I’ll take a ferry at the end.
16:41
I’ll be there. God willing. Well, how about we just right here? I’m going to try to negotiate that.
16:47
Let’s do it together. Um, how about we just all do it together? I think it would be just join
16:53
join a cult and do we just All right, we’re going to go to Costa Rica. We’re going to hang out. We’ll wait for the tsunami. It will be
17:01
knowing us, we would definitely be prepared. But I had to use humor and bring you in
17:06
because it is that it is that uncomfortable. I’m just noticing my own way of trying to avoid this relationship
17:13
with growing old and dying and losing everything that I hold dear. We are in cultured sister. We’re in cultured to
17:20
shy away from it and turn away. Our culture does not include like most indigenous cultures include ritual and
17:28
respect for the dying process is a very natural part of life. Why do we turn away from it? And this is when we look
17:34
at the way in which we’re made so comfortable. All the conveniences of this life, the fast food, all the
17:41
chemicals that are put in everything, everything all in the interest of efficiency.
17:47
We’re losing contact with these rituals and ways of being and seeing that
17:53
include death. How important is it to become comfortable with this process? You know,
17:58
I think there’s to go back to that dowist teaching I mentioned earlier. There are two polarities, absence and
18:04
presence. Right? In the Dao, absence is the fundament, the most generative
18:10
force. It’s the thing from which everything arises. What if we were to start as parents from the very very
18:16
beginning realizing that we put these people on the earth to take over for us
18:22
to do a better job than we do? What would be the result? that we are now looking at your babies
18:30
whom I love so much both of them as as the next step. Why would we avoid that?
18:36
We aren’t permanent practices practices for
18:42
Matt, my producer listening who is in his early 30s with a
18:49
very young family. H although he’s been a soldier for him the relationship to
18:55
life and death may be different. Same with Shane my husband who’s who also served. He will say that he’s
19:03
not afraid of death right and that every warrior knows what they
19:09
are called to do. And he also has said that once he let go of that fear things
19:16
didn’t necessarily matter. He wasn’t shackled by his own thoughts. That makes sense to me.
19:22
Is it important for someone like me to become comfortable with this? And and to
19:28
be clear, I wanted you to come on to this podcast. Number one, very few people have taught me more
19:35
in this world just by watching you. And number two, we spend hours, myself, you
19:42
at home, learning about life and health. And no percentage of that time is
19:49
allocated to when it ends. Staggering actually when you think about it and we know a lot about what it means
19:56
to, you know, live well, healthfully, vibrantly, radiantly. And I don’t think that that’s a bad
20:02
thing, but I do think that we need to I do think to answer your question that it is important. You know, Matt and Shane,
20:08
they have had the experience of serving to wake them up to the reality of death. In in Japanese, there’s actually a
20:15
term shoji, life, death. It’s so close. There isn’t a separation. It’s one word. Shoji. I hope I’m saying
20:21
it properly. But it’s taught me a lot because it just keeps the two of them. They’re right there next to each other. There’s no distance between them. When I
20:28
sit for meditation, that is exactly what I’m thinking. Each time I see a thought
20:33
coming up, let it die. For you personally, is this to augment bravery? I do think my quick answer is
20:42
yes. But maybe it just is bravery to keep these two things very close. Life,
20:48
death, birth, death. That is bravery. I was so nervous uh just coming here. You
20:55
and I are best friends and I was nervous coming here because is this even relevant? And now I’m sitting here
21:01
talking to you and I’m like, you know what? If two people watch this and it means something, good. We did it.
21:07
keeping death close. It It drives my happiness. Happiness generating
21:13
and is part of that because it allows you to savor each moment deeply present.
21:19
Yes, it’s all about presence. I think that’s the one thing I’ve learned the most from one of my teachers is Roshi
21:25
Joan Halifax, the founder of UPI Zen Center. Presence is the main teaching
21:30
that I’ve derived from being in her um field for these last 5 years. Presence
21:38
is what is all we can give. When you say my actions are my only true belongings, like that’s what I can give. I’ve walked
21:44
into the hospice and tried to solve things and fix things and help. None of
21:49
those things are real. They all assume brokenness and wrongness. But serving,
21:54
presencing people as my service that I can do and that makes all the
21:59
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and use the code dr lion at checkout. Do you do that with rituals and should we
23:02
have rituals? You had mentioned other cultures have a lot of rituals
23:08
a coming of age. We don’t seem to have that here. No, we our task at this particular point
23:16
in time given where we are in terms of the health of our country and the you
23:22
know these two polarities. We have this really sort of sick uh culture, I mean ill culture. And then
23:30
we have this crew, you know, we’re all after like cold plunges and all the
23:36
biohacking we can possibly imagine, all the great products that have been put out there. And somewhere in between
23:43
those two is a person who’s willing to be present for the truth of their own
23:49
death, truth of everyone else’s death, and actually serve in small ways toward
23:56
that truth. And that’s that’s where I come in. I think I can do that. I think I can continue to volunteer and continue
24:04
to share the joy of volunteering because it’s so lovely. you know, you can
24:10
continue doing your work. I’m not saying everyone has to do this. It’s hard, but I am saying it’s really nice to go and
24:18
serve someone who’s dying or someone who’s incarcerated. Oh my god, it’s the opposite of what we want to be doing
24:24
with our free hour or two hours of the week, four hours of the week. However,
24:29
when I enter into those settings, time disappears. Time stops. I’m there not just for them.
24:37
I’m there for myself. I’m there to feel what it means to actually be of service. I’m there to presence folks who are so
24:45
not served well in these times. And for me that it propels me. It keeps me
24:52
going. It it it makes me a better writer, a better friend, better daughter, better mom, better partner.
24:59
And we don’t think about it, but I’m here to I’m here to vote for that. I’m here to sort of advocate for volunteer.
25:05
Take care of your mind. Sit still. Really listen to people that you love.
25:12
Cultivate the relationships and the conversations that are difficult. Cultivate the friendships that you want
25:18
near you when you die. Take care. Not things we talk about every day.
25:23
Not at all. Uh you and I you were chatting and you said uh you’re having these conversations a
25:30
lot more. Yes. There seems to be a cadence to the conversation where people go, “Okay, you
25:36
know what? I got it. Dying is a big deal.” Something like that, right? That people
25:42
will hear and listen up until a point and then especially the young and healthy ones are, “Okay, I’m ready.” Is
25:49
that happening? Do you feel? Yeah, for sure. They’re, you know, it’s hard. It’s hard. I don’t try and force
25:55
it on anybody. If I’m asked the way you’re asking, I will talk about it. My kid doesn’t want to hear it at this
26:02
moment in time. I He’s 18. He’s 18, almost 19. And I totally understand.
26:07
Like, I don’t force it on him. If I’m leaving to go there, I’ll say, “Hey, I’m heading over to the hospice
26:13
now.” And there was a time where he’d be like, “Why are you doing that?” What’d you tell him? I said, “Actually, it brings me a lot of
26:19
joy and it helps me appreciate the fact that you’re you’re here in my life. I love you.” Helps me appreciate James.
26:27
helps me appreciate all the people with whom I get to work, my friends. And then there’s nothing else he can say because
26:33
obviously that is what’s true. Is there an age that we
26:39
should begin to talk about death? I remember I called you because Aries said, you know, mom, what happens when
26:45
we die? Are we going to heaven or um are the angels going to talk to us? And I
26:51
honestly I didn’t know what to to say. I didn’t know how much of death to even talk about.
26:57
What did you end up saying? I think I just called you and then I said, “What should I say?” And you sent
27:02
me a voice memo and I played it for her. Oh, that’s awesome. I probably said something to the effect of, “No kid is
27:09
too young to understand that life starts and life ends.” Something like that. And
27:14
I don’t doubt that there are some forces or greetings that we receive based on
27:20
the information that I have watching people in hospice. Almost every time I’m going to lift my hand for a second right
27:27
before death, an arm goes up if they have mobility. An arm goes up like this.
27:32
Almost every time. There are so many stories of of this in the field of
27:37
hospice care, paliative care. I can’t help but think there’s some hand, some
27:43
energy reaching down and they’re reaching out toward it. I can’t help but think that. So, you could say to a
27:49
child, you know, I I don’t really know, but it has to be something that you feel
27:55
and you believe. And if that’s what you want to think about that the angels are coming for you or there’s somebody who’s
28:01
passed on already that might be coming to welcome you, cool, great. Let’s keep talking about it. But I think as a
28:08
parent, if you’re listening and and you don’t know what to say and your child is asking, you can say, “I don’t really
28:14
know, but here’s what I think or here’s what I saw when this person died.” Just
28:21
be honest. You know, we don’t we don’t have answers. Do you think if individuals
28:27
have a lot of trauma and grief in their life that they meet death differently? I don’t know. I wonder about that. I
28:35
certainly saw my mom’s eyes like I mentioned prior. I I actually stood up over her bed and I
28:42
flipped open her eyelids for a moment before she passed. I just wanted to see her eyes one more time. She the
28:48
prettiest brown eyes and she was just afraid. Like I said, she they just looked so scared and I just wanted to do
28:54
something about it. We can’t Why is she not at peace with letting go of this body? And I just whispered into her ear,
29:01
“We’re all going to be fine. We are all taken care of. Your grand boys, your
29:07
girls, we’re good. Everybody’s going to be okay. Come closer to it. Let go.
29:12
Don’t be afraid. And she died shortly thereafter. Who’s to say that my words helped? I don’t know. I hope they did.
29:19
Do you feel that you know less, not more, as you’ve seen this?
29:24
Yes. Yes. That’s the craziest part. I don’t I I sit still for so many hours of the
29:31
week, honestly. at least seven hours of the week I’m sitting very still and I don’t know more. It’s not about getting
29:38
more information or knowing more. It’s just about being more comfortable with all of these very uncomfortable
29:45
concepts. Even think about how you and I know each other. How did we get here? We were both willing to be very
29:50
uncomfortable and get past it because we could see that there was somebody across the way who was actually going to be
29:56
with us for life. How did we figure that out? We were both listening very well.
30:02
I’m convinced of that. And that’s that’s what sitting sitting still gives me. It doesn’t give me information or
30:08
knowledge. It gives me good listening, patience, and the care that I can be
30:14
present with somebody when I don’t feel comfortable. And that’s through zazen.
30:20
Yes, that’s the word for zen meditation. Zazen. Zazen. Zen meditation. How is Zen
30:25
meditation different than transcendental meditation or other various modalities of
30:33
stillness? So, TM Vic meditation, lots of other kinds of
30:39
meditation. They require the use of a mantra or a mudra which is like a hand
30:44
placement. All of that is wonderful and all of it has been a part of my formation. All of it. There’s no better
30:50
or worse here. There’s no hierarchy. The reason why I personally love zazin is because there’s nothing there. You’re
30:56
just sitting. The word for it is actually just sitting. Shikantaza in
31:02
Japanese. And just sitting means literally just coming closer and closer
31:08
to the way in which my mind works and seeing how absolutely funny and
31:14
terrified it’s been and how easy it is to just let go of what drops. Let go of
31:19
what drops. Everything is so ephemeral. My mind is dropping another thought. I’m
31:24
going to drop it, too. My mind is dropping another thought. I’m going to drop that one, too. Until there’s nothing there. And then I get up from
31:31
that seat. 40 minutes, 30 minutes, an hour, whatever it is.
31:37
I am a slower, calmer being. I am an island of coherence to the people around
31:43
me. You can’t shake me for hours after that. I’m unshakable,
31:48
you know. And you’ve taught me how to be physically strong, you know, how to really prioritize muscle. I have muscle
31:54
now. That is just the best thing ever. Physiologically, structurally, everything. I feel so good. This is this
32:01
is that for my mind. I would argue also that you’ve always been very strong and that you have sought to put yourself
32:08
into deeply uncomfortable places to have this unshakable presence. M you write
32:15
and hold nothing that Zazen meditation allows the body to disappear into the
32:20
practice. We live in a world that is faster paced than it was 10 years ago.
32:27
It’s only accelerating. How would we even begin to embody this kind
32:35
of stillness so that one could metabolize trauma or grief? I think the first thing
32:41
I want to say is in addition as sort of an adjunct to that question, we also live in a world where visibility is very
32:47
important. It’s everything here. We are lights are on, books are out. My book is
32:53
not out, but your book is out. Where is your book? My book is coming out soon. We have a few months left. The sitting and the
33:00
dropping of the thoughts, the personality, all of the sort of
33:05
configurations of the mind, the disappearing that I write about that is
33:11
so I can be present for you, for your kids. Why do those kids love me as much
33:17
as they do? Cuz I’m right there. You smell good. You’re funny. Do they talk about how we smell?
33:23
I mean, come on. This episode is brought to you by something sweet. And it’s not me. It’s Manakora. Let’s talk carbs,
33:29
specifically honey. And no, it’s not another nickname for my husband. I usually call him something else. People
33:35
have this idea that carbs are bad, and that is simply not true. I use Manakora honey daily. Wellpositioned carbs like
33:42
Monicora honey, they have been amazing for my personal training. I think of Manuka honey, which is what it is, is a
33:48
functional carbohydrate, not just a sugar. It’s serving a purpose. It’s not just adding empty carbs. Honestly, we
33:54
use it anytime we need a natural sweeteners. The bees collect the nectar from the manuka tea tree in New Zealand.
34:01
It’s very complicated. The nectar is then packed with bioactive ingredients and the honey that is produced has three
34:08
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34:22
disappearance is really so that everything else can happen and I don’t need to be there. I can just be present
34:29
for what is happening. I’m not trying to, you know, do more or be more or be
34:36
more visible. I’m just trying to be present. God, it’s so hard.
34:42
It’s so hard. And think about it because for exactly the reason that you said, we
34:48
live in a world where visibility, if we want to speak and share, you will go to
34:54
hospice and there are five beds. We will talk and you will help millions of people. I know
35:00
even have a whisper thinking about dying. Well, it is not an if, it is a
35:08
when. And again, just very personal to
35:13
me. These are things I reach out to you about all the time because on one side
35:20
we have joy and I think that we all feel so privileged to have each other and our
35:27
families and there is a level of for me and I I hope that I’m speaking to you
35:34
out there who is listening a level of vulnerability of complete and total loss of everything that you hold dear. I love
35:41
my parents so much I love my best friend Don Layman and I also know that there will be a
35:50
moment we will not be together. How good are you to finish
35:56
the last question? How good are you? How practiced are you at letting this go?
36:03
Letting them go. Not at all. I that’s yeah that’s the that’s the whole charge. That’s the task at hand.
36:09
That is it. And and I will say to finish that thought, the sitting still when I’m
36:15
grieving, especially after I heard about that 15-year-old kid, I can’t even I sat for an hour that morning, the next
36:22
morning after hearing it, I barely slept that night. I just couldn’t get over it. Me, I’m like all hospice. I’m, you know,
36:29
but when something sudden like that happens and it’s out of order like that and it’s the kid dying before the
36:34
parents, wow, it just really throws you for a loop. But I sat for that hour and
36:39
I suddenly felt, “Okay, okay, okay, I’m back and I could feel the waves of grief. The
36:47
waves moved through me. They are so palpable now.” And slowly I was able to
36:53
move that sadness through my system because I was sitting still.
36:59
It’s the craziest truth. And it’s really boring. And it’s not bright lights and it’s not visibility and it’s not a
37:06
personality. It’s the opposite. It’s the disappearance that you just cited. We have to disappear in order to be able to
37:13
metabolize. And then once we’ve metabolized these things, little by little years, we can
37:20
really serve other people and helping them get through uh a challenging time.
37:26
Where is the balance between the personality and the ego of being driven?
37:32
There’s a drive of contribution, right? It sounds to me that there are layers to this. There’s being driven to
37:39
contribute, but then also just being is the word steady and present to be
37:46
contributing. How do we inter twine those two things? I like the word
37:51
steady a lot. I use it a lot perhaps too often. But yeah, I have to be very careful when I walk
37:58
into that hospice that it’s not about me. I have to be very careful when I’m talking to my kid. It’s not about me or
38:03
my agenda. I am here to serve your unfolding. I am
38:08
here to serve the unfolding of this person who’s in in the death process. I’m not here to like be perfect and make
38:17
it nice and help. Nothing is broken. I’m just here to presence. And it keeps
38:24
coming back to that because that’s the only truth. It’s not exciting. That’s the the funny part, you know? I I wish
38:32
we had some like big this is the this is the teaching. It’s like no actually the
38:37
teaching is how present can I be for you when you’re having a hard time when you
38:43
text me and you say I don’t understand this. I can’t rub my head around this. How present can I be for you? What
38:49
practices have I uh done or or tried that have helped me? How can I share
38:54
that with you without foisting an agenda on you? You know that’s how that’s friendship. That’s, you know, and there
39:01
are tactics, there are practices that do help. Rosha Joan has taught me about grace. This is an acronym that she uses
39:09
that she’s taught to clinicians and doctors and people in the uh social
39:14
engagement field of any kind. Gather your attention. R recall your intention.
39:24
Like you I can do this now in just a moment like this when I walk into a room.
39:29
Okay, I’m gathering my attention. I’m recalling my intention. The A is attuning to myself. Okay, how am I
39:35
doing? Can I attune to the other people in the room? How’s everybody else doing? C, can I consider what will serve? What
39:42
will actually serve right now? And mostly it’s going back to the very boring but very real. I can present
39:47
these people. And E, engaging and ending like sure that’s something we can sight
39:54
here. It’s lovely. It really does help me. But there’s nothing like super
39:59
exciting about any of this. It’s just how present can we be for each other at the end of life? We’re all going in that
40:05
direction. So weird. It’s It’s weird. It’s I um I hope that I
40:13
am doing a service to those that person listening
40:19
because there are a million health conversations that we can have. Oh my god. So many. and you’ve helped me
40:25
have so many and I feel so good. I’m 55 years old. I feel amazing because of you. We’ve been doing this for what
40:32
eight years together, 10 years together. There is this practice of grasping. I I
40:38
see this biohacking space. This how are we going to live in our body?
40:44
Well, how are we going to be jacked? Yes, it matters, James. How uh do we
40:51
think about our brains and our experiences? And ultimately my wish for people, which it really isn’t even my
40:57
business to wish for people, but I believe that they can be strong.
41:03
Mhm. Both mentally and physically, and they should be able to choose.
41:09
And when I think about your book, Hold Nothing, and we we talk about death
41:16
because again, selfishly, it’s the thing I’m most afraid of. Yeah. But it could be anything. It could be
41:23
the relationship that you’re grasping. It could be
41:28
the stage you want to speak on, the job that you want,
41:34
the friendship that is no longer working. Any of those items. It could be any of
41:39
those things. And what I am struggling with internally as I as I just talk about this and just try to share as
41:44
openly as I can is that I believe and and many people
41:51
want to do this thing. Shane, my husband, he’s in his third year of
41:56
surgical residency after being a decorated seal seal with multiple war deployments and a
42:04
medic. Yet here he is pushing
42:10
and I mean we’re talking 100 hour week. Yeah. Easily, right? Fell asleep, comes home
42:15
on a Tuesday night at 1:30. I go into the the kitchen, he’s sleeping there
42:20
with pizza. He was busted. Busted with a pizza. But there is there is a drive. And if we
42:28
are to hold nothing and if we are to be deeply comfortable with life
42:33
and sitting allows us to drop our personality, our identity,
42:39
how do we configure the two to fulfill as I would when I you know talk to James
42:46
our dharma or our whatever it is that vision for ourselves. How how do we combine the two? How do we do that?
42:53
This I do not know because everyone is different. I know that I’m trying my best to um grasp less as women,
43:03
especially if you’re a woman listening, you know, to to stop trying to hold
43:09
everything and everyone together. And know that everything and everyone, they’re on their own road, on their own
43:14
journey, in their own process. At a certain point, we get somewhere in our 50s, I guess, maybe even 40s, where we
43:21
can let go of more and not grasp so tightly on the things that are no longer
43:26
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entire order. Simple, proven, designed to support your biology. We hold a lot
44:44
of shame. We hold a lot of grief. We hold a lot of blame. We hold a lot of ranker, as I mentioned. We hold a lot of
44:52
grudges. Those are the things that we can practice with first in my humble
44:58
opinion. That’s what I’m practicing with. All the shame of all the mistakes that I continue to make. All of the
45:06
grudges that I have ever held against anyone who has ever done me wrong. All those things are good good place to
45:12
begin. Are you a grudge holder? I don’t think I am. You know, there are a couple of things that I’m just like, how could that
45:18
person actually do that? How could they actually think that about me? And then I have to let that go too. Wow.
45:25
How quickly can I let go of that thought, that mistake? I would say at lightning
45:32
speed. James is am I correct? She is the we have James in studio here. Um but
45:38
it’s a practice dude. I have known you 10 year almost 10 longer. Let’s see longer. 2013
45:45
2013 right? You have not picked up lightning speed any faster because when I met you,
45:51
you were at lightning speed. I I’ve been really working on it. Lightning speed of letting go and not
45:58
holding on to again two types of learning. I don’t know how often we
46:04
learn when people tell us you you never tell me things. You say
46:09
perhaps what is your roundabout way? You you know what I’m talking about. I can’t even put it into
46:15
it’s an invitation. It’s not a telling. It’s not advice. It’s an invitation or a question. Maybe what do you think about
46:21
this? Perhaps you can consider this. Or it’s a Jimmy, do we have a roundabout
46:26
way that she offers a solution? And why do I bring this up? Because there are things that
46:33
perhaps come very natural to some people and then some things that are just very cultivated and this letting go and
46:42
emptying of your identity but yet you’ve been tremendously successful. Yeah. I don’t know.
46:47
And creative. What is success even mean at this juncture? I don’t know. I’m just trying
46:52
to figure that one out too. I’m redefine like speaking of letting go. I’m let redefining what success is. Actually,
46:59
the entire construct is crumbling before my very eyes, I feel. And now it’s up to
47:07
me to create what I want. And I think what I want is a life of service, of
47:14
friendship, of being an excellent partner, and being a great mother. And
47:20
as one teacher once said to me, and efficiently using what I have. I don’t think I’ve been entirely efficient. I
47:27
think that I’ve been very forgiving and I’m becoming more and more intimate with the contents of my mind, but I’m really
47:34
I’m eager to see what happens over these coming years when I could just shed a
47:40
few more things. One of my teachers talks about uh illuminating and
47:45
shedding. That’s kind of the process of sitting and I’m doing that in my partnership. I’m doing that in my
47:51
friendships. illuminate what is happening and then shed what is not needed. You
47:59
have um a page in a chapter here really this emptying of self-doubt.
48:04
Dang went right there. I I just I have to go in because
48:10
you might not take this personally, but you are extraordinary and your writing and your transmission is extraordinary
48:18
and I feel so honored and so fortunate
48:23
to have walked all of these years with you. It is a
48:29
surprising and unusual friendship to say the very least.
48:37
To say the very least and yet all makes perfect sense. I think what we share is kind of a
48:44
panoramic acceptance. It’s such a great word. It’s just so broad. It holds
48:49
everything. It doesn’t need to it doesn’t need there’s no judgment. There’s no fear. There’s just this full
48:56
level of acceptance. And that acceptance, and I dare say the acceptance of our own mortality,
49:01
impermanence, that of everyone we love, it brings a certain caliber of vibrancy
49:10
to things. The colors are bright, you know, the connections are real. There’s
49:16
no veil. I think that’s everything. That’s what holding to me, that’s what holding nothing really means. In order
49:23
to hold nothing, you obviously have to let go of everything. Yes. Self-doubt. You do mentor people. I
49:30
don’t know if you still mentor people. I do. I do. I do. I love it. Actually, there are, I would imagine, just like as
49:38
a physician, a handful of curated items that may be less than ideal for an
49:45
individual to carry, right? One would certainly be self-doubt.
49:50
Yeah. I would love your experience with it or
49:57
how one would get rid of it or why even have it. Is it useful?
50:02
The sea in which we’re swimming that would give rise to such a thing as self-doubt. The sea in which we’re
50:09
swimming is kind of internalized and dare I say patriarchal
50:15
environment. That’s just what’s true. I’m not saying it’s good or bad. I’m just saying that’s what’s true. What does that mean exactly? Meaning
50:21
it’s hard for all of us, both men and women, to let go of the winning and
50:26
losing paradigm. It’s very difficult. I know winning or losing. If we could let
50:33
go of that binary, the whole world would feel different. Everything would change. There would be
50:38
no war. There would certainly be no lines in the sand. And I know this is a
50:43
much bigger conversation, but that’s what I mean by internalized patriarchy. I think there’s a lot of winning and
50:48
losing happening. And that keeps us from actually doing what we’re meant to be doing, which is connecting and caring
50:55
for people. I was going to ask you, do we know what we are meant to be doing? Connecting and caring for people. I was thinking, write a book, produce
51:01
the best podcast. This is your way of connecting and caring. Those are just the surface modalities
51:09
that you’ve discovered and are fluent and boy proficient in.
51:14
But really, I know you I know you a long time. You’re trying to connect and care
51:19
for people. You You started in geriatrics. Who does that?
51:24
Who does that? Not on purpose. But still, you your your little path led you right
51:30
there to the elders. First thing first thing. Do you remember you you I was not ready.
51:36
I know. I am still not ready for it. I know. But as a core fundamental belief, you
51:42
remember when uh it was winter. Yes. And I myself and Cara Lazquez.
51:48
It was a tough winter wearing I don’t know she was probably wearing 80 lbs and I
51:54
was wearing my backpack with 40 lbs and we are walking 10 miles up and down New
52:01
York City. We walked from incidentally last week my 16 lb um
52:07
weight vest was delivered to my house. I’ll be starting to hike with that soon. Very excited about this. Um, yes, I
52:14
remember. And I say this, yeah, for this idea of utility.
52:20
Yeah. Um, James and I were talking about this quote by Ralph Waldo Emerson Emerson
52:25
that it’s not the purpose of life isn’t to be joyful, which that might be a mistake, but it is to be useful. That
52:32
might also be a mistake. It might not be utility in hold nothing. I I just want
52:39
to read this this line because I love it. Life presents us with endless choices to
52:45
doubt that we’re capable enough, wise enough, or creative enough, or release
52:51
that doubt and learn to trust ourselves implicitly. We are living in a world of
52:56
too much visibility, too much information, and constant comparison.
53:02
It’s crazy. I just want to know how we navigate it.
53:07
And should we hold nothing and we let go of self-doubt and numerous other items
53:16
then what? So the doubt usually is the result of some kind of coping mechanism
53:24
or something that we heard when we were very small. We have not forgotten it. Even if our brains have forgotten what
53:30
was said or done, our bodies haven’t. It’s somatic grief.
53:36
It still lives. letting go of that is the practice. I mean, for me, it was sitting still. That
53:42
that’s what worked for me. And some combination, I will be honest, of that and this weight training that you have
53:48
me doing. At first, very reluctantly, I might add, when I met you, I’m pretty sure you were, I won’t even say, let’s just say,
53:55
just say it. Deeply plant-based. Deeply plant-based.
54:00
Um, which I I was okay with. Yeah. No, it’s fine. after although your
54:06
blood sugar was just continuously you know just creeping up towards uh
54:12
where we didn’t want it. No, it’s much better. It’s much I mean look at you. Yeah, much better. But I will say this,
54:19
the the letting go of doubt is so much about sitting still, watching the
54:25
tendency of our mind and teaching ourselves to release as swiftly as
54:31
possible the thoughts that perpetually arise. If we do that, how do we choose the next
54:37
right thought? There is no choosing. The mind will continue to secrete thoughts. Thank goodness. The practice is to keep letting go. And
54:45
after some years of this, at least in my experience, it was two or three years of this very assiduous practice. I know
54:52
it’s annoying. It’s that’s just I know. I know. I’ll tell you when I start. You You’ll start when your kids are older perhaps. But after those two or
54:59
three years, now in real life, in real time, right now, as I’m sitting here looking into your pretty green eyes, I
55:05
can actually hit on a doubtful thought. I can see it
55:11
and drop it. So the next thought that might arise might be something very supportive and helpful and that’s that
55:19
will be my next offering. Usually the best offering is nothing at all unless I’m being asked a question. I will not
55:26
speak now because I’ve seen what my mind does
55:31
and there’s no point to it. Just let everything be. No wonder you’re more quiet when I call you. Just but everything’s happening of its own
55:38
valition. Everything is happening. You know, I always just wonder, how do newborns get so much energy? They wake
55:43
up, they cry, they go to the bathroom. Well, they get something that we don’t. They get colostrum, the OG energy shot.
55:50
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55:57
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56:14
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y a r m r a.com/d dr lion and use the code dr lion at
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checkout. Intergenerational healing. As you do this work, as you drop more
56:51
doubt, more patterns, more personality, please share with me this thought and
56:58
concept of intergenerational healing. Such an interesting one. There’s we are
57:04
looking at seven generations back, seven generations ahead. We do some work for
57:10
ourselves. We begin to befriend our mind. We begin
57:16
to get really good at illuminating and shedding ideas, doubts, fears, whatever
57:22
the case. And because I’m doing it, I can see that my son somehow, I have no
57:28
idea how, is more confident moving through the world. And there were these
57:34
inflection points over time where I would get I would get clear on some aspect of my own doubt or fear and I
57:41
would see it play out in him. How I tell me I I don’t know. I I can’t really I wish I knew how. There’s probably a
57:49
million experts that you can have on this podcast that will tell you how structurally, cellularly, what happens
57:54
in the mother happens in the child, even when the child is no longer the mother’s belly. I’m sure that’s true, but I’m
58:00
watching it play out in real time. When I do my work, my kid somehow gets a
58:06
little closer to himself and a little closer to me. There’s a certain level of intimacy that I’m having within myself,
58:14
fearlessness within myself that I see in him. I don’t know how to explain it. I I
58:20
wish I could I wish I could be more articulate. I I I don’t know how to explain it, but I can see it and feel
58:26
it. And when he’s older, I think he’ll be able to speak to this like he will have seen me. I was very open about
58:31
getting sober. It was in 2013 14 October. I I was there. I remember and I was very
58:39
open with him about it and I wrote this really beautiful spoken word called
58:44
ritual of recovery and he was there as I would practice it. He was there listening to it. I would practice it in
58:50
all these different locations to really try and um memorize it for myself and to
58:56
offer it to people. And he would say that something changed within him when that happened. And I would concur. He
59:03
was a different guy after that. And so was I. I don’t know. I I wish I knew. But I I
59:09
do know this for sure. I was unwilling. I I shied away from my grandmother’s
59:14
death. I did, too. She was dying. I was on vacation with a boyfriend and I then and his family and
59:21
I was like, I’m not going. How ridiculous is that? I regret this so deeply. Grandma Bell, she was amazing. I
59:28
wrote about her in the book and she loved me so much. I can’t imagine why I would have missed it. So I will never
59:35
shy away from death again. And the way that I was able to approach my mother’s death was very very different. And that
59:41
is a healing of a sort that is intergenerational. So I you’re picking up on something that
59:47
I think is important on a personal level that your listener, the reader of this
59:52
book will find ways to to to detect it in their experience.
59:58
It’s one of the things that happens naturally. We don’t have to really try. If I heal something within myself, the
1:00:05
generations behind me, the ones that went through World War II, the ones that are coming after me, Jonah, if he ever
1:00:12
has kids and his and theirs, everybody heals. What we are going to do, actually, I
1:00:18
because I do have um five copies. I’m sure I will buy at least five more.
1:00:25
Thank you. I would love to offer if you are listening, we’ve never done this on the podcast, but if you are listening
1:00:33
and you write a review for this episode, I will send out I’m not going to give
1:00:40
you all my copies. I will send out three of the five copies that I have and I
1:00:47
will have them signed by you. Again, if you are listening to this episode, please write a review. I will pick the
1:00:52
top three reviews. Yeah. and um uh send them out a copy.
1:00:58
I think this book is so important and it talks about again your writing is
1:01:03
extraordinary. Um you know I as I’ve watched you grow up we’ve both grown up in parts together.
1:01:09
Yes. I always ask how and I ask James this too. How is she just so good at things?
1:01:14
How is she just so good at James is laughing because we, you know, I have a team of, you know, 13 to 20 people and,
1:01:22
uh, honestly, Elena could probably do all the jobs all at once. Uh, Matt, maybe not your job, but uh,
1:01:28
I couldn’t do his job. But how does someone become, and again, there’s no ego to you. It How does
1:01:36
someone become so capable? And is it because you continue to open up to your
1:01:43
true self? One of the teachers in the lineage that I practice Shria Suzuki
1:01:50
his sort of right hand for many many years was a teacher by the name of Kadiri Roshi. Kadigiri came up with this
1:01:58
term settling the self on the self. And I think even though I’ve probably had
1:02:03
all these capacities all along and I remember several jobs along the way before I became a yoga teacher doing
1:02:09
many different wearing all the hats in the in the room but I think since I started sitting meditation I’m just able
1:02:17
to be aware of what is needed around me because I’ve been settling the self on
1:02:24
the self and so I have this very direct um intimate experience of myself
1:02:31
and you know I can look at the copy for your website and be like hey gee let’s
1:02:36
work on this and work on it and in an hour it’s done because I’m also the
1:02:41
customer so it’s easy for me but I can do almost anyone’s job you know
1:02:46
and is it just from a level of clarity because there’s not this self-doubt noise ego or
1:02:53
no I’m I really am so interested in serving in whatever way that I can and
1:02:59
This just happens to be like what happens sometimes between you and me. But we have taken care of each other for
1:03:05
a long time. It but it but it’s very natural and I think it’s only because
1:03:10
you in your field have a level of presence and like rigor. Yes.
1:03:15
And in my work I have a level of presence and that’s what I can bring and that yields a certain kind of rigor and
1:03:22
attention and care for things. I think that’s all you’re picking up on. It’s
1:03:28
not a certain like, oh, she’s so smart, talented, whatever. It’s just that I’m present. I would argue it’s um smart and
1:03:35
all of those things. We could all argue about that, but there is what I’m also getting at is there’s a level of clarity
1:03:41
that allows you to execute swiftly that it might take someone 3 months to do.
1:03:46
And this is really an example for the listener at home. It is an example of
1:03:51
what I believe is possible when you can recalibrate your mind. I am not there. I
1:03:58
see it in you. I see it in Shane. There’s a level of silence that allows
1:04:04
for in my mind execution which is kind of the very opposite of what you’re
1:04:09
doing. It’s you’re just doing the next right thing, the next moment, the next
1:04:15
step. There’s a level of ease that again, how do we live well and how do we
1:04:20
live true and how do we live effectively? Part of that is
1:04:26
I think a lot of us spend a long time doubting and running from things. Maybe that’s
1:04:33
something natural in your 20s, but perhaps that could end now.
1:04:39
Yeah, that could end now just in a moment. Suzuki also said, “We’re all like
1:04:44
clocks. We’re really wound up, but we have no idea what time it is.” And
1:04:50
there’s let’s say your listener is a parent or many yeah many parents for sure.
1:04:56
Let’s say is a partner or somebody working in a certain situation that’s
1:05:01
really challenging right now. Any challenge that we have, we sit and we
1:05:06
can begin to feel a sense of groundedness and a whole bunch of thoughts that don’t pertain will
1:05:11
definitely emerge from this very productive mind. And then some really good ideas will emerge. But we have to
1:05:18
be quiet enough and still enough to know to drop all of them. It’s, you know,
1:05:23
it’s like sand settling in a glass or something. Know to drop all of them so that you can be very discerning as to
1:05:30
which one you’re going to pick up on later. It’s not something cognitive
1:05:35
either. I’ll walk out of a meditation that’ll be an hour or sometimes I’ll go and spend a whole month at at Upupaya
1:05:42
Zen Center or or you know, I’m I imagine I’ll be at other places too at some point. thus far at UPU uppaya and I’ll
1:05:49
sit for a month and in that month it’ll be 5 to eight hours a day of sitting but
1:05:54
by the end of that month I have so many good ideas. I have good ideas for you. I have good ideas for me. I have good
1:06:00
ideas for James. I have good ideas for the household. Just things that add to the um groundedness and the efficiency.
1:06:08
There’s another teacher by the name of Katherine Thanis who invites us to in
1:06:14
her writing and speaking. she is long gone to be this moment. Not be in this
1:06:22
moment or of this moment or with this moment, but to be this moment. So, if
1:06:30
you’re a parent and your kids are losing it. Yep. Happens every day.
1:06:35
How can you be this moment? And you’ll be standing in the kitchen. It will be a totally zoo around you and you can put
1:06:41
your hands on the counter. I’m just going to be this moment. And then instead of shouting, maybe maybe
1:06:49
you’ll whisper or instead of having a big reaction, instead you’ll actually sit down and your kids will be like,
1:06:56
“What is what is going on right now?” And the parent is sitting down and
1:07:01
everything sort of ratchets down three levels and something actually that needs to
1:07:07
happen can actually happen. Who’s to say what the right reaction is? But at least you can start to feel a connection to
1:07:16
what will serve in that moment when you could be that moment. It’s very profound and very efficient
1:07:21
which I love and it speaks to almost a spiritual discipline
1:07:26
perhaps. Perhaps for sure. You describe silence as this kind of prayer and
1:07:33
listening as the most powerful form of action. Can you speak to that? Did you
1:07:39
ever as a kid, and I think I know the answer to this, but I’m actually really curious. Did you ever as a kid have
1:07:45
somebody who really listened to you? Oh, yeah. Can you name that person? My grandma.
1:07:51
What was her name? Marcela. Marcela. Yeah. What? How have I never heard her name?
1:07:57
Marcy. Yeah. Marcy. Whose mom? Um, my dad. Okay, that explains everything.
1:08:03
Yeah. She was rad. She was rad. And she listened to you like crazy. Like crazy. She just sit there, hands on
1:08:10
her chin, and be super interested. Oh, into it. What a blessing.
1:08:16
I I found some letters that I wrote her from camp. Oh, God. And it was, “Hey, the oranges are here
1:08:23
with these apples are kind of soggy.” Um, you know, she sent you Harry’s fruits or
1:08:28
something. Yeah. the the message back like that’s so amaz I mean just this is so beautifully written
1:08:34
uh response to my damaged fruit yes letter that I had written
1:08:40
that woman loved you so much so much so that kind of listening is a gift to the whole world because
1:08:47
look she gave you that kind of listening which lent you somewhere in your
1:08:52
cellular tendrils of your body a certain confidence that you
1:08:59
We’re okay. You should be heard. That little conf, that little thread of
1:09:04
confidence has now the two of us sitting here, the way in which we know each
1:09:10
other is bonkers. That we love each other so deeply is bonkers.
1:09:15
And you have a a significant impact on the lives of the people you’re serving.
1:09:22
You’ve had a significant impact on my life. Why? I would dain to say many many
1:09:28
reasons, but one of the earliest ones is Grandma Marcy listening well to you. It
1:09:33
says a lot and and who you know if you’re listening to us or or watching
1:09:39
who has listened to you and how can you emulate them in the service of all humanity and don’t be thinking that
1:09:46
that’s some sort of big idea. It’s actually true. If I listen to, I don’t
1:09:51
know, a driver or somebody helping me at a restaurant or something, if I’m listening, well,
1:09:57
they have a better day. And then their kid has a better day and their partner has a better day. These little tiny
1:10:03
things. But Grandma Marcy, she’s part of the reason why you’re so successful, you
1:10:08
know, successful. And that was air quotes for those of you who are just listening. Yeah,
1:10:14
it makes a lot of sense because the way that we can then show up for others certainly perpetuates not only one
1:10:20
individual life but then a ripple effect and potentially inter generational
1:10:25
healing. There are a few last questions and this is something that when I think
1:10:33
about being clear and discernment,
1:10:38
you describe boundary setting with some boundary setting with someone you love as an act of love.
1:10:44
Yes. You describe boundary setting with someone you love. Boundaries as an act
1:10:51
of love. How do you discern who and when to remain in someone’s life
1:10:59
versus love them from afar and close out chapter? This is a very important question. I want to take it uh you know
1:11:07
with sort of kid gloves. It’s very case specific, but I know that you and I have
1:11:13
been walking this road together for a long time. Thank you, Anthony Lion. Story at the end.
1:11:18
Story at the end. So you guys have to stay tuned for uh the story at the end. I wanted to
1:11:23
take a moment to let you know about something new we’ve created. It’s called Forever Strong Insider and it’s the
1:11:30
premium subscription to the Dr. Gabrielle Lion Show. As a Forever Strong Insider, every week you’ll get ad- free
1:11:37
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1:11:43
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1:11:49
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1:11:56
train, travel, and navigate daily life. Go to forever.supcast.com.
1:12:02
Let’s keep getting stronger together. There are and have been certain situations in my life where somebody
1:12:09
comes into it and I can see very swiftly
1:12:15
that this story does not belong to me. It’s very hard to discern that.
1:12:22
Before I was sitting regularly, it was very hard to discern that. Since I started sitting, I can very swiftly see,
1:12:29
okay, this is not mine to hold and I’m
1:12:34
going to let it go quickly without fanfare, without any sort of nothing
1:12:40
else is happening. I’m just going to quickly exit the situation. It’s to call it dowist, call it, you know, sort of
1:12:47
martial art where you sort of move out of the way of the moving vehicle, out of the way of the moving limb, whatever it
1:12:54
is. I’m just moving out of the way. I’m not engaging with this situation even a
1:13:01
little bit. I’ve had a couple of clients in the recent years where, you know, there’s some sort of very obviously
1:13:08
narcissistic partner and I just advise if if they’re asking, not if they’re not
1:13:14
asking, I advise to block, delete, release, forgive, move on, no contact.
1:13:22
that person will ultimately find some other venue to express their illness. In
1:13:28
those cases, in any case where I detect a sense that it’s not actually about me,
1:13:35
I will as swiftly as possible remove myself from the situation and I won’t talk about it. You don’t. That is that
1:13:42
is one thing that um I have learned. I will bring something to you. Um,
1:13:49
again, as a as a confidant, as someone who I I trust deeply as my family,
1:13:55
I will lay a situation at your doorstep to ask you advice and you’ll say, “No,
1:14:02
this person is is wash your hands of them and no need.” But as I sit to rationalize, well, maybe
1:14:10
it is I that I’m being unreasonable. You are very clear and secondarily
1:14:15
there’s no shame. No, there is not I feel so guilty. Am I going to hurt this person’s feelings? It
1:14:22
is thank you and move on. Moving on. The best thing we can do very
1:14:27
very often is not to engage and not to try and you know uh make it right or
1:14:34
make it easier or somehow perpetuate the situation. Just release and move on. Let
1:14:41
go. It’s really hard to do. If if you’re listening and you’re struggling with
1:14:46
this some sort of um situation like this, just don’t do anything for some
1:14:53
time and see what happens without your process insinuated on the larger
1:15:00
process. See what happens. The thing might resolve by itself, but oftenimes
1:15:06
if I don’t do anything at all, suddenly everything is better. I like that. Doing a little bit less.
1:15:13
Yeah, there are two more items on our list, perhaps
1:15:19
three. And one of them which I have not been attuned to in the past, and this is
1:15:27
a what you call a literal altar, an altar in your home. And and what does
1:15:33
it mean to have an altar in the heart? And and how do we live? What does it
1:15:38
even mean? What how are we thinking about that? So many of us have very
1:15:43
small spaces and we are looking for some meaning in the things that we do and the
1:15:49
people that we with whom we surround ourselves and altar is a place where you can actually set your eyes and see
1:15:55
something that has meaning to you. Ah all of those items and those
1:16:00
paintings that would not be one that I have of yours in my home purposely
1:16:06
placed in in very particular locations. the little vase that you pulled out yesterday that I gave you so many years
1:16:12
ago. That whole shelf is sort of an altar. It’s in in her bedroom.
1:16:18
Um, what else were you showing me? The little cards, the little jewelry, even
1:16:23
weirdly when I walked into your closet and I saw that bag that I’d given you those many years ago. Yes.
1:16:28
That’s hanging there. That too is like a little bit of an altar. It’s our friendship. You know, there’s
1:16:34
something about it. You walk by it, there’s like a little heartwarming, a little burst. Those items are strategically placed so
1:16:41
that I can see them. And I would say I did that consciously. Is there of
1:16:47
benefit? Could someone create a tiny little space? What is someone trying to
1:16:52
anchor? I encourage this all the time. In fact, this is one of the things that I want to teach as the book comes out.
1:16:59
I’m going to offer this. I have to design it, but I know I’m pretty sure I know what I want to do. Can you find one
1:17:06
small shelf in your house, dear listener or viewer, where you can place a few of
1:17:13
the items that remind you of who you are? Maybe it’s a little picture of yourself as a child. Maybe it’s a little piece of
1:17:20
jewelry of your grandmother’s. Maybe it’s some photograph of somebody you love. Maybe it’s a quote that you ripped
1:17:27
out from some magazine so long ago and you have it sitting in a notebook, but you’d love to look at it every day.
1:17:32
That’s an altar. And you can make that altar as a physical space in your house. You can also make an altar in your
1:17:39
little heart. So every time I sit, the first thing I do when I sit down, I
1:17:45
exhale. I sort of gather my attention as my teacher has taught me to do, Roshi Joan. And then I let everything settle.
1:17:52
I take a few breaths like that. And then there’s some kind of like anchor for today. I’m going to anchor my sadness
1:17:59
there. That’s what it was yesterday when I was thinking about this child who died. I’m going to anchor my trust because I
1:18:07
feel so afraid right now. Whatever it is, and once that anchor is placed, I let it go.
1:18:14
That anchor is at the altar of my heart. I have another friend, Tracy Stanley, a really well-known teacher, respected
1:18:21
teacher, who has two books. One is called uh Radiant Rest and the other is called The Luminous Self.
1:18:26
I’ve read that Radiant Rest. Yes. Tracy would be uh she’s just one of my dearest
1:18:32
teachers and friends. Tea sister also and she teaches a a whole yoga nidra
1:18:39
where you’re traveling basically to uh a location that you’re envisioning as
1:18:44
you’re traveling there during the nidra and you’re landing at this altar sort of a hearth as it were. What are you
1:18:50
placing there that’s the altar of your heart? There are many ways to go about this, but it’s nice to have these kinds
1:18:57
of intimate moments with yourself where you and you are the only thing that is
1:19:03
needed. No, nothing else is needed. Nobody else is needed. You don’t need a piece of special something to, you know,
1:19:10
or a object. Nothing. You can just place your attention in your heart, anchor
1:19:16
what you need, and then drop it. It’s beautiful. Yeah, it’s beautiful. This is a heavy one.
1:19:22
Okay, you’re ready for it. I think I’m ready. You’re ready for it. What would you say
1:19:28
to someone who is afraid of dying?
1:19:36
Not much. I would just ask them how they are. I would ask a lot of questions. I would be
1:19:42
very curious to hear how they’re doing today and what’s happening in their heart, what’s happening in their mind,
1:19:48
who’s been here to visit. and I would let them kind of drive the train. Um, if
1:19:55
they asked me, “I’m so afraid to die. I don’t know how to think about this.” I
1:20:00
would say, “Why don’t we just sit quietly together for a few moments?” And
1:20:06
any thought that you have that arises seemingly from somewhere in your consciousness, what if we were to just
1:20:12
practice letting that thought gently drop? Let’s see how that goes.
1:20:18
That’s probably all I would say. And then they would make some discoveries for themselves and then we would go from
1:20:24
there. But there is no advice for that. There’s experience. There’s a practice.
1:20:31
You know, there’s there’s just a comforting presence that I can offer. Maybe even take the comforting out cuz
1:20:38
that’s extra. Maybe I can just bring presents.
1:20:44
I mean, again, we know each other so well, and I I want to let everything land and breathe and have its space
1:20:52
rather than filling it up with uh a lot of words, which is probably shocking to
1:20:57
uh my friends and family also sitting over there. Um
1:21:03
uh you know, I think I’m very funny. I’m the only one that thinks I’m funny, which is why I add in the humor to
1:21:09
deflect any any way in which I may be feeling, which is intense gratitude for you.
1:21:18
Quick story. Elena Brower and I
1:21:25
know each other because we both married
1:21:32
Tony Lion. Uh, shout out to Tony probably hasn’t listened to the podcast, but we are all
1:21:38
very very dear friends at this point. All of us, which is so unusual. And
1:21:45
when we were getting married, this is many years ago obviously. I’m married now to Shane with my two little minions.
1:21:53
Um you who we love, who we desperately love, who and at the time
1:21:58
um you wanted to come to the wedding and uh
1:22:04
uh needless to say, I was not keen on inviting my future husband, my fiance’s
1:22:12
ex-wife to the wedding. Cute Jimmy’s giggle. Yeah. And you and
1:22:19
Jonah and James have been the biggest blessing.
1:22:28
We married and uh I don’t know how to say this kindly. Um decided not to stay
1:22:34
in the rel divorce the same person and he’s amazing. Amazing human. Amazing human.
1:22:40
We love him. And his family like his family is still my family. Incredible. for sure.
1:22:46
But it would make for an unlikely friendship, which also makes perfect
1:22:51
sense. We could both recognize in each other something that was timeless.
1:22:57
Timeless. And we both put in efforts. We’ve all put in efforts. James and Tony are
1:23:03
really close. I mean, they talk. It’s really sweet. They say, “I love you.” At the end of the
1:23:09
conversation, like Jonah and his friends, like it’s real. Yeah. But we’ve put in an effort and I
1:23:14
don’t know what relevance this has for your listener, your viewer, but efforts matter in the absence of mental illness.
1:23:22
Efforts count, you know, there’s mental illness there. It’s very difficult. I understand.
1:23:27
Yeah. But in this particular case, we both put in some time and work and care. We both
1:23:34
care very deeply. Very much and that goes a really long way. Just uh
1:23:40
just wow. It’s just silly. It’s silly and amazing and that we have all these narratives
1:23:46
and these constructs about how relationships and friendships form. It’s such a unusual one. The way that it
1:23:53
started and the way that it has continued for well over a decade.
1:23:58
Yeah. I want to close this out before you offer us a beautiful meditation
1:24:04
and that is one more time the five remembrances. Let’s do it.
1:24:10
I am of the nature to grow old. There is no way to escape growing old. I am of
1:24:18
the nature to have ill health. There is no way to escape having ill health.
1:24:25
I am of the nature to die. There is no way to escape death. All that is dear to
1:24:33
me and everyone I love are of the nature to change. There is no way to escape
1:24:41
being separated from them. My actions are only true belongings. My actions are
1:24:49
the ground upon which I stand.
1:24:56
If you would honor us in a moment of meditation.
1:25:01
Yeah. Thank you again for being here. Not just in this moment,
1:25:07
but in all of the moments. It has mattered so deeply to me and my family.
1:25:13
I love your family so much. I love those babies. That video that you took yesterday of Aries jumping into my arms.
1:25:21
How often does that happen in this life? It’s a blessing. Wow. We’re We are blessed. And um this is is
1:25:28
quite a gift. Yes, it is. I love you so much. I love you, too. All right, let’s sit together.
1:25:34
So, if you’re listening or watching, go ahead and make yourself comfortable in your seat. Find a way to um place both
1:25:42
feet on the floor. If you’re on a chair, if you’re sitting on a cushion, maybe just move to the edge so that your spine
1:25:48
is nice and straight. And as you grow your spine tall, feel like you’re reaching the crown of your head
1:25:55
skyward. And then allow yourself to feel feet or
1:26:01
seat or both grounded. And take a few deep breaths here. Really
1:26:07
gathering your attention on the inhalation. Allow your inhalation to be this kind of retrieval of parts of
1:26:16
yourself perhaps that you’ve scattered about your home or your day.
1:26:21
And allow the exhalation to be a very certain settling of your energy.
1:26:30
of what you’re collecting and retrieving.
1:26:38
We’ll take two to three more breaths like that. Gathering and centering, grounding.
1:26:49
and gently become aware, as we’ve talked about during this conversation, of any
1:26:54
thoughts that begin to emerge out of your consciousness.
1:27:02
Maybe it’s a thought about a plan or something that’s happened in the past. And just notice it and bring your
1:27:09
attention back to the next breath and the way in which you’re collecting and
1:27:16
settling. And the idea being that each thought
1:27:23
that emerges, each as we spoke about secretion of the mind
1:27:29
becomes something you can just allow to drop.
1:27:37
And you can certainly keep your eyes closed or if you wish you can open your eyes. And the reason to gently open the
1:27:42
eyes, take in a point on any surface in front of you is to practice being present for reality
1:27:50
as it is.
1:27:56
And it can take time to learn how to keep your body still, to learn how to
1:28:01
not address every itch. To stay still is to face the things that
1:28:07
are difficult to face. And to become stronger in your discernment
1:28:15
of what you tend to and what you leave alone.
1:28:27
And as time passes, you begin to notice that there’s a part of your attention that actually can see and feel and
1:28:34
ascertain everything that’s happening.
1:28:39
And it is on that part that you can rest
1:28:46
all of your energy, all of your attention on that which sees everything.
1:29:02
And the practice of noticing and dropping thoughts never really ends.
1:29:09
But you may notice in time that the thoughts slowly
1:29:15
become fewer and farther between.
1:29:23
The pace slows down and the body begins to move into a
1:29:32
really restful healing state in which homeostasis or health is
1:29:39
prioritized. Balance is prioritized naturally physiologically.
1:29:57
We’re taking about five to 10 more breaths here, depending on how deeply you’re breathing. So enjoy each one to
1:30:03
the fullest and be extremely discerning as to which
1:30:12
thought you follow and which thought you allow to recede.
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And if you’re so inclined, you can bring your hands together, your palms together in gasho. You can place your fingertips
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right in front of your nose about a fist away and just take a moment to dedicate the
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benefit of this practice to all beings.
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Anyone you know who needs it, any community you know who’s suffering.
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And feel what happens in your chemistry when you move this benefit toward someone else
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and how it changes within you.
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And I want to thank you for your practice.
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Thank you my G. I love you. I love you so much. Thank you for having me on.
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It is such an honor. My moments with you are some of my
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favorite. Same. Love you.