00:00 Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Do you think that vaccines cause autism? That is the most important question. We don’t know if they are causing some of these concerns. We need to know that there is no way you look around California and one in 12.5 adult males have autism. That’s insane. Something is happening. A vaccine doesn’t have zero risk. And so I think it’s reasonable to say, Okay, but what are the risks from this vaccine? If you don’t feel like vaccines are the best thing for your kid, you should be allowed not to take them.

00:27 Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
How many vaccines are children getting?

00:29 Dr. Joel Gator Warsh
It depends on which number you look at and how you define it, but be 30 to 50, even, even more so than that, it’s not unreasonable again, to say, Well, is it too many? There is nothing that has shocked me more in my probably entire life than looking into the autism research myself. So how can you say that vaccines don’t cause autism? I think the biggest concern right now is the chronic disease epidemic, and we’re seeing more and more kids sick, more and more kids having take medications. I think that’s a massive concern. 50% of kids have kids have a chronic disease. That number is staggering, and it continues to get worse. It wasn’t like that just a few decades ago, it was five, 10%

01:16 Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
I am really excited to have you on you’re a pediatrician, and my number one goal for this episode is, how do we keep our kids safe? And my first question to you is, what are some of the most concerning trends that you are seeing in childhood?

01:32 Dr. Joel Gator Warsh
I think the biggest concern right now is the chronic disease epidemic, and we’re seeing more and more kids sick, more and more kids having take medications. 50% of kids have a chronic disease, and the latest statistics just came out, and it’s 75% of adults. That number is staggering, and it continues to get worse. It wasn’t like that just a few decades ago. It was five 10% so a lot of what we’re doing is moving us in the wrong direction.

01:55 Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
And by chronic disease, your biggest concern in terms of keeping kids healthy is what Dr. Joel Gator Warsh 02:00 obesity would be one of the biggest concerns. And we have a huge obesity epidemic, but it’s really all of it. I mean, it’s diabetes, it’s neurodevelopmental concerns, autoimmune conditions, they’re all skyrocketing and all skyrocketing together, and cancer, all these things we’re seeing increase. And I don’t know that we should pick out one or the other, they’re all concerning. But certainly, obesity is probably the biggest concern, I would

02:21 Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
say, have you seen the health of children change? For sure, the amount

02:26 Dr. Joel Gator Warsh
of conditions that we’re seeing, the concern around conditions has skyrocketed in my practice. It’s a little bit different because I have a self selecting population who are a little bit more integrative minded. And if I look at the statistics, I don’t see quite as many of those things in my practice, but certainly more than I used to. And without a doubt, when I look around, when I go outside, when I see my kids playing at the playground, you notice more and more kids that have developmental concerns or seem like they have chronic conditions, or they just always seem sick, unfortunate. I think that we’re seeing

02:56 Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
this. You mentioned neuro developmental and that leads me to my next question, which I think is an obvious question, how do we protect our children from vaccines, and do we need to

03:08 Dr. Joel Gator Warsh
I think that is such an important question that we don’t quite know all the answers to yet. I think when it comes to vaccines, what’s important is to weigh the risks versus the benefits, and I think we have a pretty good understanding of the benefits of the vaccines in terms of risk reduction the diseases which we used to have, but I don’t think we have a very good understanding at all about the long term complications of the vaccines. And I think that’s a really important piece, because it’s not just about protecting against disease, it’s also about protecting against chronic disease. And I am very confident that we don’t have the information that we need to assess how or if vaccines are interacting in such a way that it’s one of the factors that are leading to chronic disease. And I think that’s a very important piece, because if they are causing some of these concerns, we need to know that.

03:55 Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
You know, it’s really interesting. As a mom of two kids, I remember when I had my first child, I was really concerned about, Do I give my daughter the hep B vaccine at birth or not? And you cover that in your book, which, by the way, I think that your book is extremely well written. It’s between a shot and a hard place. Can you talk to the mothers, the families that have newborns, and you know, it’s terrifying to hand your child over to say, Okay, well, I’m going to give you these vaccines right at birth. I think

04:26 Dr. Joel Gator Warsh
it’s really important to state that, and I’m not against vaccines. I My personal belief is that we should have informed consent. People should be able to choose whether they want to do or not do any sort of medical procedure, whether it’s in my practice, whether it’s in the book, I don’t tell people what to do. In my practice, we have people that do the regular schedule. Regular schedule. Some people do a slower schedule. Some people don’t do it. And I feel like my job is to educate and discuss what we do and do not know. And when it comes to making a recommendation, the CDC schedule is the CDC schedule. That’s what’s recommended, right in America. And it would be very arrogant to me, I think, to say, well.Well, you know, Dr Joel knows better. You shouldn’t follow the CD schedule. You should do my schedule. That’s not my belief. I think it’s important that we talk about it. And anything that you want to do outside of the regular schedule is a personal choice, and we should be able to have conversations like this, where we can talk about things like Hepatitis B and talk about the concerns that parents have, because they’re real concerns, and there’s just a lot that needs to be discussed. And Hepatitis B is one of those big topics. I mean, there’s no question about it, that is the vaccine that I would say of all the vaccines that the most people decline in my practice, I would say the majority decide they don’t want to do the newborn hepatitis B vaccine and decide if they want to do it later or not. And the reason being is because you’re asked to give a vaccine to a newborn baby, literally, a day old. While there are some potential benefits from that vaccine, you have to ask yourself about the risks, and we never talk about that in modern medicine, what does it mean when a baby just came out to give them the hepatitis B vaccine? And it’s not just that, necessarily you’re giving a vitamin K, you’d be giving them an RSV vaccine, but at least with hepatitis B, you can test and we can test now for hepatitis B, so we we know if a parent has hepatitis B or not. Now, is there a possibility that you could have a false test or a problem? Yeah, sure that’s possible. Is it possible that someone who doesn’t know they have Hepatitis B walks into your house and bleeds on your baby and your baby gets hepatitis B? Sure those things are possible. So you need to explain that to a parent, but the reality of that risk is so small, one in 1,000,001 in many million, I don’t know what that risk is, but almost nothing. A vaccine doesn’t have zero risk, and so I think it’s reasonable to say, Okay, but what are the risks from this vaccine? Does it lead to anything later? Do I have to do it now? Can I do it later? And that’s a very fair question. You’re putting parents on day one in a position where they have to make a choice, to listen to the doctor and the CDC or go against that recommendation. And I think that’s a really bad place to be, where we’re putting parents against as opposed to having a discussion about the pros and the cons and saying, Here’s a recommendation. Here’s why we say you should do it. Here are the concerns around it. What do you think? Do you want to do it?

06:59 Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Or not? So Hepatitis B is typically, from what I understand. Isn’t that transmitted from blood or sexual contact? Are there other ways so that

07:08 Dr. Joel Gator Warsh
those are the main ways that you’d get it? So main, main way would be sexual contact. Well, the main way at birth would be for mom. So would be mom has hepatitis B and passes it through the birth, through blood to the baby. So if you have hepatitis B, it may very well be reasonable to get that vaccine. That’s a very different risk benefit calculation, because your baby has a high risk to get it. But if you don’t have hepatitis B, if you tested for it, then your risk is infant tested like, really, really, really small, not zero, but really, really small. So you have to understand that there is a potential risk. It’s possible that you could get infected. And if a baby gets hepatitis B, it’s a big deal. It will be very serious. So what could happen? They could get chronic hepatitis B, and you could die. You could get cancer. It could be quite serious. So if a baby gets hep B, it is very serious. And that is why they decided to do it, because it absolutely has decreased the rates of hepatitis B, but the rates are already really low to begin with. And that goes back to personal choice and your understanding, do I have hepatitis B? Does my partner hepatitis B? Am I going to be letting a lot of people of people around my baby, and am I willing to take that risk of, I don’t know, the one in whatever million that somebody comes and bleeds on my baby? It’s probably not going to happen, right? So you should be able to say, well, you know, I don’t feel like I need to do Hepatitis B right now. I’ll do it when they’re older and when the risk is a little higher. I think that’s a very reasonable position to have as a parent. I don’t have an issue with that. If a parent says that to me, I think that there are risks with everything, so you have to decide on what risk you’re comfortable

08:27 Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
with. What about the risk of actually giving the vaccine? And there are different types types of vaccines, which you cover in your book, but if we were to just look at hepatitis B, because again, I also had a friend that just had a baby girl, and he called me and he said, you know, well, what did you do? Did you give your baby Hepatitis B right at birth? What are the risks of giving that child, for example, hepatitis B vaccine at birth?

08:54 Dr. Joel Gator Warsh
The biggest risk would be short term risks that we are aware of, so fever and some pain swelling get just sick in that week, just not feel good. So those are the big risks, right? Like, anytime you get a vaccine on hertz, redness around it, swelling a rash, those are the things that we see. The major complications are documented to be pretty rare. We’re told they’re one in a million. I think it’s more than one in a million, but we’re told that. So things like seizures, Guillain Barre Syndrome, which is an inflammatory syndrome, so things like that. So those are the big documented concerns. The question is, really, to me, more around long term risks, which we just don’t really know. It’s never really been studied in that way, so we’re not really sure if they’re related to any sort of long term risk. And that, to me, is really the big piece of the puzzle that’s missing.

09:37 Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
And it’s not just one vaccine. How many vaccines are children getting these days, they’re

09:42 Dr. Joel Gator Warsh
getting a lot more. And so it may be, it depends on which number you look at and how you define it, but be 30 to 50, even, even more. So than that, we have a lot of parents have concerns around the amount of vaccines, and I think that is totally reasonable. What has happened is, when we were growing up, we maybe had a few, like five, maybe 10. 10 in that range, and most adults just never thought about vaccines again. Haven’t thought about it in 20 years, until the covid pandemic and the covid vaccine, or if they have a kid and they have to go look at the schedule and like, Wait, how many vaccines are there? So it’s really a lot more. And sometimes you’ll hear 72 or 100 so you can define a vaccine based on the antigen. So let’s say DTaP vaccine, diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, that’s three but it’s not three pokes. So how many pokes you actually get will be somewhere in the range of 20 to 40, but it’s still a lot more, and there’s a lot more antigens that are included in that. It’s a lot more diseases that we’re protecting against, but still, so just a lot more than it used to be. And it’s not unreasonable again, to say, Well, is it too many? Is it causing an issue? Where are the studies that look at the cumulative vaccine schedule and how that’s affecting us? We don’t have those.

10:48 Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
In preparation for this, Florida just issued a mandate that they no longer require vaccines. And I was just curious as to what your take on

10:57 Dr. Joel Gator Warsh
that is. It’s a bold move. I think that with a state like Florida, you had exemptions anyways, but I think it’s more of a statement to the other states that are saying we don’t believe in mandates. We believe in personal choice, and we don’t want to force anybody to do anything. That’s my personal belief. I don’t feel like you need to have mandates. I the reason behind school requirements, in theory is it pushes people to get vaccines right, because if they don’t get the vaccines, and they can’t go to school, and it encourages vaccines, and as a public health measure, we’re encouraging vaccines that way we don’t have outbreaks in schools, and we’re getting more and more kids vaccinated. But I don’t think that’s the right incentive. The right incentive should be people should get vaccinated because they want them, because the science is clear, and because you feel like it’s going to help your kid. And if you disagree with that, if you don’t feel like vaccines are the best thing for your kid, you should be allowed not to take them. And you might be right. You might be wrong. Your kid might get measles and get really sick. That’s possible, but you should be able to make that decision. And we have seen over the last few years a push to mandate things. And I think this is the, I guess, counterpoint, or counter argument, to covid mandates, which I think pissed off a lot of people, made everybody really upset, and really pushed so many people too far. And so now we’re seeing the pushback where certain locations are saying, We don’t want any more mandates. We don’t want this to ever happen again. I don’t know that extremes are always the best thing, but this is the counter extreme to what we saw during covid, which did not turn out well,

12:25 Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
you said that the science is clear. Maybe it is. Maybe it’s not. When it comes to vaccines, this is probably the biggest question that I get as a physician, believe it or not, even though I don’t see kids, we see kids in our practice, but I personally don’t see kids, and that question is, Do vaccines cause autism? And I was looking at some of these numbers, and from an autism perspective, it looks like since 2000 at that time, there was 119% increase. And we were chatting before we started rolling, saying that the numbers maybe don’t matter. But looking at this recent number one in 31 children are diagnosed with autism.

13:05 Dr. Joel Gator Warsh
It’s absolutely insane. It depends on which study you look at and which organization. But it was, you know, maybe one in 150, to one in 6568 20 years ago, and now it’s one in 31 are the latest numbers one in 12.5 boys in California, I don’t care what the specifics are. It’s so much more. It’s such a major topic that we’re ignoring, or at least we’re up until this point, and it’s a big deal. It’s so frustrating as a physician, to hear the discussions around autism, often in the mainstream media discuss it in a way where it’s like, oh, we’re just better at diagnosing it. That’s why it’s so diagnosing it. That’s why it’s so much more common. And like, yeah, we are better at diagnosing it. There’s no question about it. We’re certainly talking about it more. But there is no way that autism was anywhere near the numbers that we see them today. You just look around anywhere you ask anybody who works with kids with autism, it is so much more prevalent and so much more severe than it was even just a few decades ago, there is no way you look around California and one in 12.5 adult males have autism. That’s insane. Yes, we’re better diagnosing it. Yes, that’s a small part of it, but something is happening, and the fact that we’re not open to looking into everything, including vaccines, is absurd. We need to look into everything. Some kids with autism do phenomenally well, and that’s okay, but there are a lot of families where they have severe complications, and those severe complications are increasing. Something like 20 to 30% of kids have severe autism, which is much higher than it used to be, and those families want

14:30 Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
help. Back to my question, though, do you think that vaccines cause autism?

14:34 Dr. Joel Gator Warsh
That is the most important question. We don’t know. That’s the answer to the question. We don’t know. There is nothing that has shocked me more in my probably entire life than looking into the autism research myself. When I went through training, we were told vaccines do not cause autism. The science is settled. We have tons of great research to prove at this point. You know, that’s it, and that’s all you think. You don’t think to question it. Why would you think to question it when you’re in. Training, and when you hear it on the media, it’s like, oh no, no. The science is settled. We know that it does not cause it. It’s been debunked. And so that’s a reasonable thing to think, like, why would people be lying to you? And then when you start to read other books and you start to look at the research yourself, you realize that we haven’t studied this question almost at all. We certainly have had some studies. We’ve looked at MMR, we’ve looked at thimerosal, which is the mercury component of vaccines, which they’ve taken that out, which you’ve taken it out? Yeah. So that’s not even a major concern anymore. But how can you say that when we haven’t studied all the vaccines? MMR is just one vaccine. We have not studied anything where it’s vaccinated versus unvaccinated kids. Not one study exists on that with autism. We haven’t looked at all the vaccines. We haven’t done a prospective trial. We haven’t looked at all the ingredients in there. So how can you say that vaccines don’t cause autism? You can’t say that they do, but you can say that they don’t. We have not done the best kind of research, the research that we need to tackle this topic, and to say that it’s been debunked or the science is settled is ridiculous. It’s so far from

16:02 Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
that. Is it just because of the amount of vaccines that they have? Or why, from your perspective,haven’t the studies been done?

16:10 Dr. Joel Gator Warsh
I mean, there are only a few theories as to why it’s not been done. One, because we were just telling people it was settled, so nobody did it. I don’t know if that’s true. There’s been a major disincentive to do it, because of people that do that research end up becoming called, you know, an anti Vaxxer, crazy quack. They get their careers destroyed. So there’s been a major push in certainly some of the studies, to call the people quacks, and then destroy their careers. And that happens. So that’s not new.

16:39 Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
I mean, remember, have you looked at this the past? For example, germ theory. There was this guy that suggested that when a woman has a baby that you must wash your hands. And he was completely ridiculed. People told him he was crazy. Ended up in a mental institution. I think he killed himself at, I don’t know, mid 40s.

16:57 Dr. Joel Gator Warsh
Yeah, this is not new. I mean, anyone that speaks out against the dominant narrative, can certainly get a lot of pushback, but with vaccines, it seems more than that. I mean, it seems like there’s some targeted attacks on individuals that have come out with studies. And so I think that’s that’s a big part of it. It’s just really hard for me to believe. And this, again, is shocking that you can it’s pretty hard to do a prospective trial. I think it should be done, but it’s harder, but it’s not that hard, to take big data sets and say, All right, how many kids are vaccinated? How many kids are unvaccinated? What are their autism rates? What happened? You don’t see that. That doesn’t exist. You could go to Kaiser, you could get the data you get in five minutes, and you could post a study autism in kids that are vaccinated versus unvaccinated. I cannot believe that that stuff has never been looked at. So the only thing I can think of is either people were just so sure that there isn’t a problem, they didn’t look, or they did look and they didn’t like what they found, so they didn’t publish it. Those are the only two things that make sense to me. I mean, you have the vaccine safety data link, which has millions of kids and millions of reports, they could go back and say, okay, all the kids in this vaccinated versus unvaccinated. What are the rates of chronic disease? What are the rates of autism, ADHD, autoimmune conditions, we don’t have that research. Why you would think, if they want to discredit someone like Secretary Kennedy, that would be the easiest thing to do. You just pull that research, say, with 10 million kids, no difference in rates. So I don’t know if just nobody did it, or they looked and they didn’t like what they found. But why it wasn’t done? I don’t know. It’s crazy because you because I thought it was done. I think people would think that. I mean, I’m very honest. I thought it was done until I did the research myself and realized it was never done. So I don’t know how you could say that in epidemiology. I mean, I have a master’s in epidemiology. I have a pretty good understanding of how to look at the research. And when you say something has been debunked, or that the science is settled, you need very strong evidence to say that we don’t even have weak evidence to say that it’s insane.

18:45 Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
The CDC vaccine conversation is going a bit bananas right now. Would you just bring us up to speed?

18:52 Dr. Joel Gator Warsh
Yeah, it’s hard to be up to speed, because every day something else happens. But it seems like there is just so much back and forth right now between Secretary Kennedy and the new individuals that are in the organizations, versus the individuals who have been in the CDC and NIH for a long time that really,

19:11 Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
okay, frame the just quickly for a listener who doesn’t know what day and month that we’re recording, and just bring us up to speed a little bit on the history of, you know, just briefly, what is happening within the CDC, where they are in terms of how long individuals have been there, and then they let them go, and just this whole situation, yeah,

19:31 Dr. Joel Gator Warsh
there’s a lot. So we’re in early September, and with Secretary Kennedy, he has fired the head of the CDC and multiple individuals who have been there for a long time, years, maybe decades, for some of them have left or resigned. Many people have, I guess, walked out or petitioned against him, have asked him to resign. The mainstream media seems very much against anything that he’s doing. And Kennedy, okay, so you have that. Yeah, within these areas, there’s this lot of pressure and fighting against the decisions that he’s making. There’s a lot of concern that he is going to cause, or is causing, a major concern around vaccines in this country, and going to pull vaccines or take them away from people. And so there’s this massive fighting with that, he also removed the ACIP committee, so that’s the Advisory Committee on vaccines, and replaced them with a bunch of other individuals.

20:26 Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Which are they qualified individuals? Can you highlight, just for those of us that don’t know what these committees are, why they’re in place, and just what is the landscape and what’s happening,

20:38 Dr. Joel Gator Warsh
I would say across the board, the major concern that Secretary Kennedy has are a lot of the things that we have talked about, which is our health is going in the wrong direction. We had a very bad response, in his opinion, and mine, to covid, and we need change. And the individuals that have been there for a long time over oversaw all of this, whether it’s the CDC, whether it’s the advisory committees for immunizations, whether it’s National Institute of Health, they have been very stuck in their ways. They’re looking at things in a certain way. And he wants to bring in new individuals, different perspectives. And so he’s replacing it’s within his purview to do it. He can replace people that he thinks are going to do better or worse. Now I don’t know each person. I don’t know whether they were good or not good. I just know the outcomes and the outcomes were not good. So having new individuals in there makes a lot of sense. Having difference of opinion certainly makes a lot of sense. The individuals on the committees, they have experience too. They have different

21:33 Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
positions. Are they MD PhDs, PhDs, it’s a

21:36 Dr. Joel Gator Warsh
mixture, so mostly MDs, but, but it’s a mixture of different individuals in different positions. So they all have some experience in the in these topics. I mean, they wouldn’t be there otherwise, but it’s just different experience. The mainstream medicine wants someone who went to Stanford or Harvard or Yale and has been doing research for 50 years before they get on these committees. And I think a lot of individuals who are against that say, Well, that’s what kind of lead is here. There’s a very narrow lens that people have based on the specific science that they deem as the appropriate science, and they’re not open minded to some of the other discussions, other topics, when it comes to vaccines, they’re extremely pro vaccine, and they’re not open to having any discussions around concerns around vaccines. And I think Secretary Kennedy wants to have those discussions. He wants to open up the research. He wants there to be able to be discussions around possible concerns. And so that has everyone butting heads, because if you’re a mainstream physician or a mainstream individual at the CDC, vaccines are the best thing ever, and anybody who questions that as a crazy anti Vaxxer, and you’re disrupting it, and you’re going to cause people’s vaccines to go away, which is not what he stated he wants to do. He wants to do. He wants to open up the research and science. So there’s a lot of friction with the old and the

22:49 Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
new. Now, do you foresee this friction continuing to happen as they dismantle part of the would you say that they’re dismantling the CDC? I mean, they’re, I suppose they’re not. They’re just, they’re restructuring it with different individuals. Would you say correct?

23:05 Dr. Joel Gator Warsh
I think the friction has just begun. I think it’s going to get far worse. In the next few months. You’re going to see many, many individuals either leave their positions or or start to fight back. The more that, the more that comes out. Because we, we know where he is headed with some of this stuff. I mean, he has talked about what they’re looking into at the advisory committees, like looking the hepatitis B vaccine, looking into autism, and presumably, some information is going to come out of what they’re finding, and that’s going to create even more chaos, because anything that he comes out with, you either love it or you hate it. It’s kind of very two sided. Right now, do

23:40 Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
you think that that’s more the physicians or more the general population?

23:46 Dr. Joel Gator Warsh
It’s both. I think that the physicians mostly are pretty anti Secretary Kennedy in general, not all of them.But I think,

23:54 Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
do you think it’s that they’re anti Kennedy, or are they pro science in a way that they are used to
science being done. Both.

24:04 Dr. Joel Gator Warsh
They’re pretty anti him, no matter what he does, because I think that they see him as an anti Vaxxer. That’s what they’ve been taught and told so it doesn’t matter what he says. But I think in general, they’re very pro the way that things have always been done, and the status quo and anything that disrupts the status quo is a threat to them and everything that they do. So I certainly think that that’s a part of it, and that’s a part of just mainstream, where there’s such a fracture right now between individuals that are very approving of what he’s doing. And you see that, I mean, he’s very popular amongst the people that he’s popular with. He’s had a very high popularity rating, even more than most most other people the latest polls. So the people that love Him love him, the people that hate him the people that hate him hate him. And there’s not a lot of middle ground there, just crazy to me, because everything is very nuanced in this, and there does need to be a lot more discussions, and I hope that that does happen, but it seems like we’re moving in the other direction, where he seems to be digging his heels in more, and the establishment seems to be digging in their heels more. And there’s a. Lot of back and forth. And so, yeah, I think it’s just, it’s just starting, and there’s gonna probably be more people that leave, more positions that are filled, and whether that’s good or bad is going to be something to see in a decade from now, I think. But again, I go back to what we were doing wasn’t working. So I think that we need that friction. We need some big change. And I ultimately think the bad is going to be much less bad than people are worried about, and I think there’s going to be a lot of good to come from this. And a lot of individuals who are digging their heels in eventually might hear some of this stuff and might say, Oh, well, actually, that’s not so bad. Oh, wait, that’s what the research shows like, like, for example, with autism, I know that if a doctor would read the actual literature themselves, they would never say again. The science is settled like that is not heard by them. They’re not going to hear it from Kennedy. But if more research comes out, more people start talking about it. Someone that they respect says something about it, it will slowly start to trickle in, and then you might see, oh, maybe we should get more research and debt on that. It’s not going to be so controversial to them at that

25:59 Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
point. If that is the case, then perhaps there are a handful of studies that you’ve read that really have opened your eyes or changed your mind one way or the other,

26:09 Dr. Joel Gator Warsh
for the autism. So it’s the bulk, it’s the majority of the studies that really have changed my mind, because when you look at the reviews, when you look at what has been studied, it’s very clear that it’s not all the vaccines. So the only thing that would change my mind would be actually to see vaccine diverse, unvaccinated studies, and to actually see prospective trials moving forward, to see what they found. We don’t have that. So my mind has changed that we should not be saying vaccines don’t cause autism, or they do cause autism. My mind is very clear that we don’t know, and that’s the only thing that anybody should be saying. And we should be open to looking,

26:41 Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
how would a parent listening to you right now be able to navigate in the world? Right? You have the American Medical Association, you have the CDC, and then you have these somewhat opposing voices like RFK saying one thing, how would a parent who wants to educate themselves and understand how do they make sense of it? I think

27:08 Dr. Joel Gator Warsh

the first step is just what you said is to get educated to some degree on the different concerns that are out there and what, what the mainstream is talking about with vaccines and what the counter points are. And I think you need to read multiple different books. You need to look at different sources. And that’s one sources. And that’s one of the reasons why I wrote a book. Was to talk about a balanced perspective. But before my book, when people ask me these questions, like, well, you have to read more than one thing. You have to read something that’s a CDC perspective, and then you have to read something that has an alternate perspective, and then you have to start to form your opinion. You have to make decisions in the world, and we don’t have all the information, so you have to make the best decisions with all decisions with all the information that you do have, and go from there. And it’s not easy, because we don’t know the long term research on autism. We don’t know the long term research on chronic disease, so you have to make a decision without that knowledge. And so you have to weigh the pros and the cons for yourself and decide what you feel makes the most sense, and you have to listen to whoever you feel like is trustworthy.

28:04 Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
But there’s got to be a standard, right? I mean, so, for example, in nutrition science, I don’t just look to anybody. I have to understand where they are credentialed, what their training has been, what has their views been, and how are they putting out information in the world, and do their peers respect them? And are they looking at the evidence, or are they informed by something else? And there has to be a way. It’s very challenging.

28:30 Dr. Joel Gator Warsh
With vaccines, is very challenging because the standard is the CDC schedule, right? So that is the standard, and if you want to go with the standard, then you follow what the research and scientists have said for all these years. But the counter argument is really just coming out now. I mean, it wasn’t something that we could really discuss. There were a few books back in the day, like dissolving illusions, probably the most popular one from before, and then turtles all the way down was another. You mentioned that in your Yeah, so those are popular books, but turtles all the way down. I mean, again, the topic is so controversial we don’t even know who the author of turtles all the way down is, because they didn’t put their name on it. It’s in didn’t put their name on it. It’s anonymous authors. So this is not a topic that’s been openly discussed until now, and for me, my main goal of the book is not to tell you what to do. Is to be able to have discussions like this, because people might want to be told what to do. They might want to be told what to do, but I don’t think it’s your job to be told what to do with vaccines. I don’t think it’s your job to be told what to be told what to do in medicine in general. It’s our job to discuss and inform so that way people can make a decision that’s best for them. If you want to be told what to do, the CDC schedule is what’s telling you what to do if you want to do anything outside of that, if you have become educated, you’ve listened to different individuals and you have hesitation, then those are the kinds of things you need to read to come up with a plan for yourself, or to work with a doctor or practitioner that’s open to an alternative schedule, or working with patients that are unvaccinated. I mean, those are not every doctor will do that. Most won’t, but there certainly are practitioners out there that will work with you. But ultimately, again, it is personal choice, and the reason it’s personal choice is because. No one’s ever studied anything else. So people say, Okay, well, what? What alternative schedule should you do? It’s something we have to come up with every patient, because there’s no study that says, Well, if you do it this way, it’s going to be better or safer. Doesn’t exist. They only studied the regular schedule, and even at that, they didn’t really study it as a whole schedule. So how are we supposed to give an opinion, an educated opinion, without research or data. It’s just, it’s just common sense you’re using basically, or your, you know, your personal beliefs, and it’s also how comfortable the person is doing the vaccines. There are some people that just

30:29 Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
don’t want to do it. It’s really challenging. When you were writing this book, what was the most surprise? I mean, I think that you touched on one of the most surprising things is that the science wasn’t nearly as settled as you had anticipated. And you’re in a unique position, because most physicians have not done a master’s in epidemiology. And I listen, you’re amazing, because I would probably fall asleep. Epidemiology is can’t say it’s the most exciting science, but it is really looking at big populations. And the point of epidemiology, if I’m not mistaken, is it helps frame a question

31:02 Dr. Joel Gator Warsh
correct well, it helps to get data where you can use the information that you already have to make an assessment and to lead you to get better, to do better questions like epidemiology, research can be very helpful. You can look at a million people. You can look at risk factors for certain things. It can give you valuable information. It’s not as good as good as a double blind trial. It’s not as good as following people prospectively, because the problem with epidemiology is, depending on how you set up the equations, you can change the results drastically. And that is the big issue with the vaccine research, is it’s very set up in a way that there’s a lot of bias. And you you see this, because people that are super pro vaccine always find something that’s Pro. Pro vaccine is their answer. People that are very anti vaccine always find what their research, something that’s very, you know, not good about vaccines. And so it’s really hard to know what’s true, because it depends how you you set up the data. I mean, this is RFK talked about this. He was talking about recently, about the study where vaccines and autism and the concerns of the 1,000% increase in kids having, you know, having concerns that were adjusted by the CDC and were were changed and in a nefarious way. And I don’t know anyone’s motivations, but the original research around 2000 did show a major increase in in these concerns, but that was before it was adjusted, before they did their actual study. It was just the preliminary data, and then after it was adjusted, then there was no difference found in the two groups. So that, again, just shows you how profound the difference is, depending on who’s doing the research and how you adjust it, one thing that shows 1,000% increase, the other one shows no increase. And so you don’t know which one is right, because it depends how you adjusted it. If you adjust it in a different way, maybe you get a totally different answer. But if you’re like, Well, I got 1,000% increase in autism, I must have done something wrong. Go find my friend. Oh, you didn’t adjust for this. Okay, let’s adjust for that now. There’s no difference. Okay, I guess I did it right.

32:58 Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Now, are there some people if one in 12 males in California are getting diagnosed with autism, which, again, that that number is huge, do you feel? And again, this is a bit of your medicine is an art, right? There’s the art and practice of medicine, and a really good doctor is able to take the data and then also see what is being shown to them by their patients. Do you think that there is some way to indicate if at all someone who is going to do well with a quote, traditional vaccine schedule? Let me, let me tee this up for you. Many of the moms say at the park will say, My son was fine until he hit five, and then he was vaccinated for Measles, and all of a sudden he went non verbal. Have you heard that story before? Definitely, many times. Okay, help me understand that, and help me understand are there some children that may be at risk for that additional, you know, robust immune response, or whatever it is, if anything at all, or maybe it is just, just happened to be that day, yeah. I mean,

34:15 Dr. Joel Gator Warsh
that is a wonderful question, and it’s the right question. And to start with the first thing to really talk about with that question is this story is happening 1000s, probably hundreds of 1000s of times where a parent goes in feel like their kid is perfectly normal and growing healthy and everything’s wonderful, and then the next day or the next week or a couple weeks after they get a vaccine, everything changes. That’s in their opinion, those people are often called anti vaxxers After they get upset. And that’s so crazy to me, because it’s literally a parent who went in to get vaccines, and there’s no way that person’s anti Vax. This is their experience. This is what they think they could be right or wrong. They could have got a vaccine this morning and had a heart heart attack this afternoon. It could have nothing to do with it. They were gonna have a heart attack anyways. But when hundreds of. 1000s of parents have the same story. We ought to listen to that, take that data and try to figure out if there’s some truth to that, and that’s really frustrating that we’re not listening to parents, because that is the data that we need to start to figure this out. How do we know which kids are going to have a reaction, or, more likely, we have to start looking into that data to figure out what makes you more susceptible. And that, again, has never been done. It’s insane. Like, wouldn’t it be amazing if we figured out that there were certain genetics or certain kids that were more susceptible or more likely to have a bad reaction, and figure out who those kids are? So that way, we can minimize giving those kids vaccines or giving them a specific schedule or space it out, or whatever it is that’s going to give people more commonness to vaccinate, and we’re also going to minimize also going to minimize reactions, which, of course, is what we want. And so as of right now, there is no exact way to know that. I would say things to watch for would be the more susceptible kids. So some kids just get sick more. They seem to be a little bit more

35:56 Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
fragile. What do they call their are they called fragile? There’s more fragile kids. If you

36:00 Dr. Joel Gator Warsh
had a vaccine, you had a bad reaction. I think that kid’s certainly more high risk. If you had bad reactions to vaccines, or people in your family had bad reactions to vaccines, then maybe there are some genetics. So I don’t think for those individuals, it’s not unreasonable to at least go slow for those kids to make sure they’re not having reactions there. Again, there’s something wrong with that, or anti science, or anti Vax, about saying these kids seem like they’re more vulnerable. Let’s go slow with those kids and be extra cautious. What doctor wants to give a child a bad reaction or a chronic condition, nobody does. So it’s not against science to just be more cautious, but we should study it.

36:35 Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
For example, in your practice, do you think that there’s a relationship to methylation. This idea that someone has an MTHFR mutation, would a child like that be more sensitive to a maybe not even a vaccine? Maybe they’re preservative in the vaccine, because I’m sure in your practice, you have a more integrative practice, and there’s probably things that might not be evidence based, but maybe evidence informed in some capacity that you try to figure out, would this be too much of a burden for this child, or kind of a framework for parents to think about?

37:16 Dr. Joel Gator Warsh
The issue with MTHFR is that there are so many people with mutations that it’s hard to know how or if it might affect kids. I think certainly, when that first, when the research first started coming out, people were very Oh, this MTHFR. It’s related to detoxification. It’s great. Saying no, I’m not saying no, I’m just saying, we don’t, we haven’t done the research with MTHFR as it relates to vaccines. Specifically, there’s a very little, little bit of it, but the body’s so much more complex to say, Oh, you have MTHFR mutation, therefore you can have a reaction to a vaccine. I think if you have a significant mutation, it’s not unreasonable to go slow. But that, again, goes back to well, that’s what we should be studying. We should be studying MTHFR with vaccines and then many other mutations to see if we can find a pattern of well, these are the 10 mutations that seem to put a kid more at risk. These kids have a 50% chance having very severe reaction. And it’s not just MTHFR. I think that’s too simplistic, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable if you have a mutation to go slower. I think that’s fine, but ultimately, you don’t need that to go slower. It’s just if you have concerns and you want to go slow, you can go slow. I don’t think that’s definitive of anything. I mean, I’ve seen people get the MTHFR test many times, it doesn’t really seem to be that helpful clinically. When it comes to vaccines, the reactions seem to be a little bit more, a little less simple than just doing a test like that. But I would love if somebody would do that research over the next 10 years and really starts to get kids that have bad reactions and starts to figure out what their genetics are, because I think we genetics are, because I think we could figure out that there are probably some mutations that leave you more susceptible to vaccines, of course. Why wouldn’t it be? I mean,

38:49 Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
that I that would make sense. Do you have you studied or looked into any of those? Do you have any sense of what they could be? Or are you trying to formulate a plan,

39:01 Dr. Joel Gator Warsh
not yet, because nobody studied it at all, right? I mean, there’s very, very minimal research. I’ve talked to some people like they should go do this, but, but you have to acknowledge that vaccines can cause a problem before you’re going to go study that there are things that you can do to help protect you from those problems, right? We have barely even acknowledged that vaccines cause issues or can lead to chronic disease, we have to establish that first. And I think if that’s established, then there’s going to be a bigger push for innovation in that space, because you’re going to see a lot more people hesitant. And then I feel like the things that you could do to make people less hesitant are to actually test to figure out who is more susceptible and why, and then you can decrease that risk. Like, maybe there’s some supplements you could take, maybe there’s some herbs you could do. Maybe there’s a genetic acceptability. These are all things that are possible to give people confidence, and we haven’t done any of that yet, or very minimal in my office, like, Okay, we could take some vitamin C, you could do some vitamin D, you could take things to support your immune system. But again, none of that’s been studied at all. When it comes to vaccines, I’ve never seen any research on any of it, and that’s really important. Research to do, but no one wants to do it, because that would inherently mean that there could be a problem with vaccines, and we’re only starting to even acknowledge that now, and there’s a big war going on right now about all of that. So, you know, I think in a few years, it’ll be a little bit more open to this stuff, but, but right now, it’s just the beginning.

40:17 Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Do you think that there is a relationship between vaccines and chronic disease for kids,

40:22 Dr. Joel Gator Warsh
I think there is, well, first, basically anybody that you ask that takes care of both vaccine and unvaccinated kids has the same answer. They feel like the unvaccinated kids are generally healthier and more robust. That’s what everybody says, whether they’re right or wrong. I don’t know. I certainly in my own experience, it feels like kids that have fewer vaccines seem to get sick less. I don’t see them as much. They seem to have lower chronic disease rates. I don’t have anything definitive. I don’t have enough patients to do a big study like that, but that’s just my experience of what I’ve seen, and many, many practitioners that take care of them. Anyone that I’ve ever asked says the same thing. So I think that’s true, but you have to weigh the risk of the disease versus everything else. And I think that that’s an equation that requires a lot of nuanced conversation, because it’s not just so simple as you get fewer ear infections, okay, if your infections, but you die of measles, that’s

41:11 Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
not good. Speaking of dying of measles, you bring up a really good point. I when I was in my husband’s active duty and I was living in New York City, in, I don’t know, four to 600 square foot apartment, pregnant and alone, and there had been a measles outbreak in a certain community, and I was on the subway going, I don’t know if I was going back and forth to Brooklyn, but frankly, I was a pregnant mom totally afraid of getting measles because there was a measles outbreak in New York City.

41:45 Dr. Joel Gator Warsh
Yeah, and it happens, and we’re seeing it more because there are more people that are unvaccinated, but there are always smaller outbreaks every single year. That’s not new. There’s a little more this year than there has been in previous years, but it’s still not, not far from what we usually see. But this is the reality. I mean, there’s a risk and a benefit to everything, and that is where I go back to again. We have to have nuanced conversations about it, because it just seems like there’s two extremes, and nobody wants to talk about the reality of the world. It’s like, Oh, you just want kids to get a vaccine and get autism. No, nobody wants to give kids any currencies. And then everybody’s like, Oh, you just want kids to get polio and have not be able to walk, walk or, Oh, you sort measles and die. No, nobody wants that. Two things can be true at once. You could want kids to have a decreased risk of infection, and you can also want them to have a decreased risk of chronic disease. And there’s no reason why we can’t study this, because ultimately, if vaccines are related to chronic disease in some way we need to figure that out. We need to ask why. If you were to find out, after doing the proper study that hepatitis B increase your risk of asthma by 10 times, you would want to know why. You wouldn’t say we shouldn’t do hepatitis B vaccine anymore. You would say, what’s the reason why this is occurring? Could we change hepatitis B? Maybe we can do it in a different manner so we don’t have that risk. Nobody wants to increase our kids’ risk of having asthma, but maybe there’s an ingredient. Maybe the aluminum there is causing an issue, so maybe we could take that out or find a different adjuvant that doesn’t increase that risk. We want to minimize infection, but also minimize chronic disease, and those two things can both be true, and that’s why we have to be able to have a balanced conversation, because there are more and more vaccines hitting the market and more and more vaccines getting put out there. And if we don’t have these conversations now, then what’s to say? There aren’t going to be 50 or 60 or 100 vaccines in a couple years for our kids, and just because we can make a vaccine doesn’t mean we should, and just because we can protect against the disease doesn’t mean we should do that, because there can be too much of a good thing. And you could say, well, you know, five vaccines has a lot of benefit, but 40 vaccines actually causes more harm than good. Both those things could be true, or maybe 100 vaccines is fine. I don’t know, but we should be able to talk about that, because ultimately, your goal is to decrease or to decrease these, these illnesses. You want kids to be healthier, and if you’re making them less healthy overall, that’s a problem. So we have to be able to talk about I’m not saying that they do, but I was saying we have to ask those questions and discuss it and study it.

44:09 Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
So the preservatives, so this thermosol that, from what I understand, has that been taken off the market?

44:14 Dr. Joel Gator Warsh
It’s been taken off now. So thimerosal is just such a crazy story. It’s the mercury component that’s in vaccines as a preservative, and it works very well as a preservative. It does decrease the risk for bacterial contamination, fungal contamination, that’s why it was put in there. But it is a Mercury. It’s composed of a mercury in there. And it’s insane, because you go back to around 2000 at that time, somebody said, Hey, wait a minute, there is more mercury in vaccines than we allow in food. Is that safe? And nobody studied this or thought about

44:47 Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
this. Tell me about that. I was looking this up, and there’s a vaccine containing 0.01% the Marisol contains approximately 25 micrograms of mercury per. A point five ml dose, and that’s roughly the same amount of mercury as a three ounce can of tuna, right?

45:06 Dr. Joel Gator Warsh
And so around that time, we were really starting to understand the risks of mercury, right? And we were concerned about, especially with fish, how much we were eating, especially in pregnancy, and there were a lot of recommendations coming out to minimize your amount of mercury. And then they said, Oh, actually, there’s more mercury in vaccines. Now it’s a different form of mercury, but it’s more so is that okay again, which is insane, because no one asked that before that you could just inject mercury and it’s fine. And we didn’t think about safety, but they didn’t, and they started, okay, well, we should probably study this. Do they really not think about safety? Not really. I mean, they put it in there without having that answer, right? I mean, they probably thought about it a little bit, but it was a small amount. But then more mercury was added into more vaccines because more vaccines were added onto the market. So probably they thought a little bit about, I mean, think about the studies back then. They weren’t done in the same way that we do them now, not necessarily as a double blind control trial, not necessarily studying Mercury specifically for safety. And even if they did, they were studying it as one vaccine, and not in all of them. And as more and more vaccines hit the market in the late 80s and the 90s, now there are more mercury containing vaccines that are being given to kids. And then what is the key there? They’re not now back then. So back then, there were just more and more vaccines hitting the market in the 90s. And so now you have, if you’re doing you know, one vaccine is 25 micrograms, but how about if you’re getting six vaccines with that? Okay, now you have more mercury than we’re recommending. Is that safe? And so they said, Well, let’s start studying this. They never found it officially to be a problem, but they decided, out of abundance of caution, they would take it out, just given the fact that everyone was so concerned about Mercury. And so it was taken out of every vaccine in early 2000s but it was still in the multi dose flu and that this year was part of the discussion, if you heard the words all for the first time, because it was still in the multi dose flus, and Kennedy took that out. So there it isn’t in any vaccines anymore, or at least it’s going to be phased out if it’s still in any of them.

46:56 Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
In your clinical practice, do you test for heavy metals?

47:00 Dr. Joel Gator Warsh
Sometimes we do. It’s not, I would say, as common for kids, but certainly sometimes people want to do it, and they’ll do with the hair testing. It’s hard to do testing on kids because they’re kids, and you don’t necessarily want to get a lot of blood, but if there are serious issues, and certainly we’ll do functional medicine testing, or at least, I’ll send them to a practitioner that does a lot more functional testing, and they can, they can go through those, because I think if you have a chronic condition, then I think it’s worth think it’s worth to look into things like metals and

47:24 Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
mold and other issues. And lead is lead still routinely done.

47:27 Dr. Joel Gator Warsh
Let so lead. I mean, it’s in there, but lead still routinely tested, just in kids in general, just because there’s so much lead still around.

47:34 Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
And have you, and this is just a clinical practice question, again, asking for a friend myself, because I have two little kids. Have you seen a child test positive for, say, lead or something that you were surprised about, maybe an environmental exposure, and you treat that and their behavior changes, or their again? Now you are an epidemiologist. One thing you know, correlation doesn’t mean causation. But have you seen that in clinical practice?

48:05 Dr. Joel Gator Warsh
I have seen it. I mean, certainly you see it with lead a lot of times with lead. Specifically, though, you’re trying to catch it before, so you’re testing it when they’re nine months or a year old to see if there’s any lead. So you’re catching it really before you have symptoms. But if we do testing for older kids, sometimes we’ll see things. Sometimes there’s nutrients off. A lot of times, Vitamin D is super low. So that’s something that’s something that’s, that’s pretty common that you’ll see and then mold the other big one for kids. I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s not something we’ll always test on the kids. I’ll do it sometimes, but in testing at the home is very common for families. And they do find it. They do clean it up. It does get much

48:36 Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
better. Is this from a behavior standpoint, what would be

48:39 Dr. Joel Gator Warsh
behavior? Commonly vague, weird symptoms that just don’t seem to go away. So oftentimes, where these things are most helpful is for these chronic low grade issues that just don’t seem to go away. And maybe multiple family members are having issues, lots of headaches, lots of stomach aches, very irritable. It’s these things that just are not very obvious to be anything. Sometimes it’s behavior too, but oftentimes it’s like, oh, there’s always sick. They can’t seem to get over cold. Now they’re having asthma exacerbations. It gets getting worse. They’re, they’re always, always have headaches, they always seem to have diet like, weird symptoms that you just can’t point to anything. And then a year or two later, they’re like, Oh, we did, we did mold testing. We found a lot of mold, and we took it out, and it seems like they’re doing better. So that is something that you see, or just any sort of environmental exposure. I think that’s the other thing that people sometimes just don’t realize, and that does come up often, if you talk to parents enough, is figuring out, okay, where are you going? What are you doing? What are you exposed to? I’ve seen many times where a kid switches schools and they have bad rashes, and they go to some other school and it gets better, and it’s probably something they were spraying at the school, or they were at a park, a certain Park, and then they realize after that park is being sprayed in whatever chemical, and they’re just playing on the grass, and they maybe moved houses, and it just goes away. So there are a lot of environmental exposures that we just don’t think of. It’s not always easy to point out, but. Oftentimes those vague, weird symptoms that just go Don’t go away are from something that they’re touching or doing. It’s just you have to be a detective to figure it out, which is not

50:08 Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
easy. No, I absolutely agree with you. I think the environmental testing and environmental factors is the new frontier of medicine in we are, we’re very far behind. They have environmental physicians. Those are great environmental physicians, occupational physicians, but for the most part, these exposures are tremendous. They definitely impact our kids and adults. Yeah, we don’t have great ways. There is no standardized treatment. It’s it’s really challenging.

50:38 Dr. Joel Gator Warsh
I mean, I get asked this all time, like, Okay, so with chronic disease, like, what is it? Why is it happening? And again, we don’t know which is devastating. We don’t know why it’s happening because we haven’t done those studies. But common sense being common it’s our crappy food and it’s the toxins that we’re exposed to, and we just have not acknowledged that up until more recently, that we’re bombarded with chemicals and toxins all the time through our food and through our environment. And anybody who works even a little bit in an integrated space, you don’t have to be the most integrative doctor, but as soon as you start to just think about that, you see people getting better just by changing their environment, just by changing their food. It’s not always the case, but those are the things that you see all the time. Improve things, and it’s not always with specialized testing. When you can do it, you can do, you know, mold testing. You could do heavy metal testing. That’s doesn’t always help, but what does help the most is being a detective and thinking, Okay, what am I actually doing that could be leading to my chronic condition, and what could I do to change that? And oftentimes, if people even just think in that way, they figure it out. Maybe make take a year or two, but they figure it out.

51:40 Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
You mentioned childhood obesity, which we started off talking about. Childhood obesity is absolutely on the rise. How do you think, as a pediatrician, we can avoid that.

51:52 Dr. Joel Gator Warsh
We have to change our food we have to change the food system. I would say, as a parent, an individual level, it’s really important that you have to take some responsibility to understand that you’re saying that, because ultimately you’re the one purchasing the food, especially when they’re younger, and we have to be okay with buying real food and preparing that food more. We have to be preparing most of the food that they’re eating. Yes, they’re going to eat some other things at school and other places. I mean, hopefully you educate them over the years as to what’s healthy and what’s not but at least, if you’re feeding them at home most of the time, giving them food to take, that’s going to make a huge difference. And just acknowledging that it’s it’s like we’re doing this, we just, we didn’t get obese all of a sudden, just because our genetics change in 50 years, like that’s not what’s going on. Our food is so crappy. 70% or so of the food we’re eating is ultra processed. It’s not real food. It’s not the food that we’re supposed to be eating. And and, you know, I mean, I’ve been very fortunate to be involved in some of the MaHA type stuff, which is great, you know, but it’s all weird to me, because I was talking about kids health well before Maha, and I happened to be at the the Kellogg rally to support getting the dyes out. And so I got to know some of the people there. And so that’s that really helped me to helped me to become, you know, someone involved. But I only care about kids health. I don’t care about politics. It’s really the whole thing stupid. And there shouldn’t be, it shouldn’t be politics, right? Like, we should be just all fighting together, yeah, for for kids health, it should be bipartisan. And, you know, we are seeing that a little bit to some degree, but, but ultimately, it’s the choices that we’re making and the food system that’s it’s so screwed up, and it’s great that we’re fighting for dyes and little things. But ultimately

53:24 Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
that said it little things. Dyes are, honestly, dyes are little things. The bigger problem, the bigger fish that we have to fry. However you want to say it the system. It’s the ultra processed food. The question, I’m so happy to hear you say that you feel that it’s a parent’s responsibility if a child is obese or overweight, the question is, whose responsibility is it?

53:46 Dr. Joel Gator Warsh
It’s the parents responsibility in the setting of a very difficult environment right now. So I think it’s both. I think it is both. I think we need to take responsibility, because ultimately you have the choices of what you’re purchasing and what you’re doing. And I understand, oh, the first thing that people Oh, you know, single mom can’t afford it. I get that. I understand that there are specific situations, but we have to do the best that we can to support our kids within the financial means that we have. And the bigger problem, and the thing you should be saying back is to something like that is not, oh, it’s ableist to have healthy food. It’s no, no. Every kid deserves healthy, fresh food. How do we make that happen? How do we get healthy food to every kid? How do we get fresh local produce back as the standard? And that is a systems issue right now on the individual level. Yes, you have to do it, but we also need to fight really hard to change the system. It’s not an easy thing.

54:35 Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Yeah, and if 74% of adults are either overweight or obese, where do you think children learn from

54:40 Dr. Joel Gator Warsh
right exactly, and that’s why I said so the dye thing, for example. It’s great that we’re talking about it. I think it’s not healthy for you. Ultimately, if you have ultra processed food with a red dye number 40, or you have it with a natural diet, the food’s still bad. So ultimately, that doesn’t make a huge difference. But I think it’s something that people galvanized around and. A lot more people are aware about reading labels and ingredients than before, so I think that’s really, really, really helpful, and it’s good to get those ingredients out. But that is not the fight that we need to have over the next three years. It’s not about individual things. It’s about the system. It’s about the farms, the food, the produce, like all of these things have to change so we can get healthier, fresh food locally that’s not more expensive than the crappy food. So we can start to change that system, change the incentives. That’s a really hard thing to do. It’s not simple, but, but ultimately, we have to make that the easier choice for people. So that way we’re gonna get healthier. Because you say, like, whose responsibility is? It is the parents. But it’s gonna be a lot easier to be a parent if you could buy healthy food cheaper, and that’s what’s available to you versus what’s not available to you.

55:44 Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Now, eggs. I hear what you’re saying. I agree with you, and I would say when, when someone says that to me, that it’s more expensive to eat healthy I will give you them an alternative. A dozen eggs might be $5 right?

55:58 Dr. Joel Gator Warsh
Yeah. And there are so many things that you could do that are not more expensive but but the incentive, in general, in the in our environment right now is the ultra processed foods that seems to be cheaper and easier to access. And a lot of people don’t always have they have access to eggs, but they don’t have necessarily access to a lot of good fresh produce. They could go. And you do have almost everywhere you can, you can drive. And unless you’re pretty rural, there, is some access, but we need to make that much more available. You go to other countries and the local stores are not selling mostly processed foods. They’re selling fresh stuff. A lot more markets, a lot more farmers market type things. We have to move back to that, and I think we could.

56:34 Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
So there is the food component. And then I was looking at some of the data in terms of children being sedentary. Children are sedentary on an average of seven plus hours a day.

56:46 Dr. Joel Gator Warsh
Yeah, I mean, that that’s the whole other piece of the puzzle that we haven’t tackled either. But that’s, that’s the other piece. I mean, we’re not moving. Kids are on screen seven, seven plus hours a day on

56:54 Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
average. As a pediatrician, how much do you recommend? I mean, as little as

56:57 Dr. Joel Gator Warsh
possible, right? Other than I understand, people have to use schoolwork. So a lot of schoolwork is on computers. Now, that is what it is, but I think other than that, as minimal as possible, I’m not someone that says zero screen time, because I think that’s probably not practical and not the way our world works at this point. But if you are on seven plus hours, then what are you not doing? You’re not moving, you’re not getting outside. So I think we have to shift that and really focus on especially those kids that are eight hours a day, 10 hours a day, like we have to shift that back to one or two hours or homework, plus very little other than that. We have to encourage and prioritize movement.

57:31 Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Can’t does homework. Now, when you were growing up, was the homework done on an iPad? No, it wasn’t. So does that? Are we, I, you know, I think that ultimately we are doing what we’ve done in healthcare, which is, well, this is the way people are doing it, so we should all be doing it. I never used an iPad when I was in school. You never used an iPad. Why is that even something that is remotely feasible? It doesn’t even make sense to me.

57:59 Dr. Joel Gator Warsh
Yeah. I mean, I agree with you. I think it’s totally fine if we would go move away from that as much as we can. And so we’re encouraging. It’s all about incentives and encouraging. I think if we start to make it a point, like, Look, we’re not doing our homework on screens, because it’s not good for you to be on screen so much. So here it is on paper. You know, those are the kind of things that it doesn’t seem like it makes a difference, but it does, because Absolutely, the encouragement, the messaging for the average kid makes a big difference. If you’re on the computer for eight hours a day, because you have to do all your homework on that. That’s just what you think is normal. And then you know you’re on the computer. Then you know the things over here. You scroll over to social media for a second, then it’s two hours, you go back.

58:34 Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Have you heard of the daylight computer? The daylight

58:37 Dr. Joel Gator Warsh
computer? I haven’t heard of that. But assuming it’s like, were you focusing kind

58:41 Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
of No, it actually looks like a Kindle, almost, and there’s no blue light, and you actually can’t search, and doesn’t have all these distracting items that would pop up. And I’m hoping, again, I have no relationship with the company. But to me, if we can, if we’re going for convenience, which it seems as if people love convenience, then if we’re going to do that, perhaps we make it healthier and safer.

59:08 Dr. Joel Gator Warsh
Yeah, I think that’s the direction we need to go with phones and computers. And I’ve definitely seen a bunch of companies pop up in the last couple of years where they’re taking away your access to the internet. They’re taking away like it’s there for emergencies. It’s there for just the specific things that you need to do. I think we have to move back, because it’s again, it’s the messaging we take phones out of schools. It’s a message sent to kids, hey, like this is, this is not good for you. This is not good for your mental health. You’re not paying attention. Be off your screens. We have to send that messaging clearly.

59:35 Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
I want to circle back. I skipped over this. I want to circle back to this new discussion, which is GLP, one use in children.

59:42 Dr. Joel Gator Warsh
Yeah, that’s insane. There’s nothing else around I like, I don’t have any problem with people using a GLP one if they choose to, if it’s a last resort, I think for somebody who is morbidly obese, who’s very ill, then medications have their place. And you know, potentially you tried everything. Else you just don’t have that motivation, it could put you on a good path. Okay, I get that, but that is not what’s happening with kids, and that’s not happening with a lot of people there. You tell me what is happening with kids, it’s something that is given, like any other medication. It’s like, well, you have this issue, so here’s your here’s your medical solution, here’s your prescription, and anything like that that’s affecting your body in that way, affecting your hormones, affecting your liver, affecting your kidneys, affecting everything. That’s a big decision, especially on

1:00:26 Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
your own. For a long time, our parents coming to asking for GOP ones for their kids, not

1:00:30 Dr. Joel Gator Warsh
in my office. I’ve never been asked, and I wouldn’t do it either. I mean, if they would, would want to do it as some to a specialist anyways, but I would try real hard to convince them away from that. I especially as a kid, that does not seem like a reasonable option for almost all kids, especially younger kids, like it’s a crime factor. For me, I don’t know under 15 under

1:00:55 Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
total. Listen, I, I do not think that GOP, and I’m usually not someone who is a yes or no type of physician. I don’t think that things are typically black and white, but GLP one use and again. Would there be a case where someone would use a GLP one in a child? Maybe, if they are morbidly obese and the child can’t move? I don’t know, maybe, but, but, but for the average child,

1:01:20 Dr. Joel Gator Warsh
but even for the like the extreme, almost with kids, it should almost never be needed, and it absolutely should be something that’s after every other thing has been done for a while, including getting them an exercise therapist, getting them a nutritionist, getting them working with a therapist, whatever the reasons are, maybe the family needs counseling about food and what foods they’re giving them. I mean, there, there are very few kids that are going to be so morbidly obese and also have the chronic conditions like for an adult, you could see someone’s really, really sick. I can understand you need it quick. Usually for kids, even if they’re morbidly obese, they’re not so sick that you don’t have time to work with them in a more natural way, because you need to figure out why they’re so morbidly obese, and you need to adjust those things, or else they’re going to be on that. They’re going to be on that, they’re going to get off it. They’re going to get more obese again, and you’ve completely affected their body when they’re growing. It’s a quick fix, and it’s not right. And again, people say, Oh, okay, well, it’s easy to give someone medication. Not everybody can get a nutritionist. Not everybody can get an extra service. Yeah, that’s right, that’s a problem. You should be able to get access to a nutritionist through your insurance or whatever it is, as opposed to getting access to a medication, the system is broken. And you, if someone’s morbidly obese and you’re thinking, you should give them medication, we need a system that supports people in getting the other things so they can actually get healthy in the appropriate

1:02:32 Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
way. Well, what do you think about bringing back the Presidential Fitness Test?

1:02:35 Dr. Joel Gator Warsh
Yeah. I mean, I think that’s was controversial, without needing to be super controversial. It’s, it’s, again, why do you think it’s controversial? I think it’s controversial because you’re bringing back something that has competition. And we’ve moved a little bit away from competition, it seems like into more like everyone’s accepted at participation trophies. And this is kind of putting back those things, which I guess some people had been I grew up in Canada, so I didn’t necessarily have that. I had something similar, but I get why anything that anybody does in the administration is going to be controversial right now, but ultimately it’s a message. It’s a message that we care about health, we care about your fitness, and we’re going to take a stand. We’re going to push you towards more fitness. Competition can bring strong feelings, sometimes, especially if you’re not doing very well in these things. But ultimately we need to, I think, get a little tougher in our schools to push people to become healthier, not to shame anybody, but to say, like we need, we need to have some benchmarks. We want to make sure everybody can do because we’re not meeting them. Kids are super sick, super overweight, have all sorts of chronic conditions, and that’s that’s a disaster. I mean, you talk about your family being involved in in the military and services, and a lot of kids would never qualify because they’re so overweight, they have so many complications. It’s such a big problem. Not from, I mean, it’s from a defense standpoint, I guess. But that’s not my big thing as a pediatrician. It’s like, if you’re not healthy enough, putting the 12 year olds in, if you’re not healthy enough to do that, like it says a statement about our country.

1:03:58 Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
I am shocked that the Presidential Fitness Test was controversial, and I’m going to tell you why. The reality is we should have a baseline. How many push ups can you do? How many sit ups? What is your one mile run, or your dash? Whatever it is, your rope climb? There is nothing wrong with competition. The only way people get better is, if you are challenged, there is someone that wins, and there’s someone that loses, and just become, just because someone isn’t number one doesn’t mean that they didn’t put forth effort, or any of those things. And you know, in terms of, you know, we talk about obesity, we talk about chronic disease we’re talking about food dyes. If we were to take a step back, I would argue one of the biggest challenges that our country faces is comfort, and comfort is absolutely killing people, the fact that the Presidential Fitness Test because some people win and some people don’t, and. People feel as if it’s shaming that is somewhat ridiculous. And no, does it suck to not be good at something? Yeah, it does. But guess how you get better

1:05:12 Dr. Joel Gator Warsh
the test and everything else. Look, we have clearly failed at public health in this country. We’re the sickest western country, chronic disease rate, 75% overall, what we’re doing isn’t working. So you can, I said this multiple times, unless we couple weeks, you can like or dislike Secretary Kennedy. You can like or dislike the new administration what they’re doing, but whatever was done before has absolutely failed in terms of our overall chronic health and chronic disease. So we have to do something different. You can we can debate and quibble over presidential test versus not president’s test. This policy, that policy, vaccines, not vaccines. You can quibble all those things. And that is the right of everybody here. And we should do that. We should debate it to figure out what the best

1:05:56 Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
way forward is, no fitness testing. Sure, everybody fine, but I don’t

1:06:00 Dr. Joel Gator Warsh
care. You can have that opinion and someone can disagree with you, but the fact that we are not making changes is ridiculous. We have to make all sorts of changes. We have to move in a different direction. And some of those things are gonna be right and some of them are gonna be wrong. But what’s definitely wrong

1:06:15 Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
is what we’ve been doing. Yeah, I, you know, frankly, I also, in our company, we have physical fitness standards. By the way,

1:06:21 Dr. Joel Gator Warsh
having standards makes sense. I have any problem with that, but I have a problem with looking at our health, where we are. We want to get better. We have to have some major changes, and that’s going to cause a little bit of turmoil in the interim.

1:06:33 Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
It’s okay, but we need it. What? What are some safe workouts for kids?

1:06:38 Dr. Joel Gator Warsh
Safe workouts for kids, I think, you know, using your own body weight exercising. So we want to be consistent. I don’t think for the younger kids in general, the research shows you want to use a lot of heavy weight, but I think using your body weight or low weights and repetition is usually the best way to go. And that’s what most individuals that I’ve ever spoke to that work in the fitness industry say, for kids. I mean, you want them to be moving, ideally something fun, right? I think the best thing is, if it’s not a workout, per se for kids, but something they enjoy doing. So whether it’s a sport, an activity class, whatever it is that can get them moving in a way that they love. So it’s consistent.

1:07:10 Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Is there one sport that you like to see kids participating in,

1:07:14 Dr. Joel Gator Warsh
anything right now, literally anything that gets them moving? I mean, even a few minutes a day makes a huge difference. Every study I’ve ever seen sites that even a few minutes of moderate to vigorous activity makes a huge difference. Most kids aren’t even doing that. So I want to move the needle. I think everyone needs to move the needle forward in terms of what they’re doing, but something that keeps you moving like, you know, soccer is great, whatever it is, but I don’t care right now. I think just something,

1:07:38 Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
yeah, there was a huge push against resistance training. When I say resistance training, whether it’s body weight or picking up weights, because there was a lot of conversation around it affecting growth plates, and that is not accurate in the data. There is no reason why kids shouldn’t be able to lift weights. You know, we’re not talking about one rep max, but move now when you are young, so that you can move later. And you know, our kids exercise. It’s not necessarily, quote, structured exercise. But my son, who’s four, is training for the SEAL teams. He’s hilarious. He’s doing two a days. He is sprinting. We have one of those Woodway treadmills. I mean, he’s doing it all on his own. He gets up and he might do three sprint intervals and then go jump in the cold plunge for, I don’t know, three seconds.

1:08:27 Dr. Joel Gator Warsh
That’s amazing. And kids are so resilient, and they can do amazing things if you give them a chance to Yeah, but there’s such a wide range of what we’re seeing. But all of, almost all of it’s not good. So to me is, you know, when you say which sport, which activity, I don’t care, get them moving, whatever they’re willing to do. The ultimate of the discussion is get off a screen and go do something outside, even if it’s just going to play outside, going to the playground, playing in nature. I mean, these things are amazing. And that’s, that’s, that’s all they need,

1:08:55 Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
yep. And there is some data that that suggests that the healthier and stronger, and this obviously makes sense a child is when they’re younger, the more likely that they’re going to be healthier as an

1:09:05 Dr. Joel Gator Warsh
adult. Yeah, I’ve seen many studies that show that now where your health and your your level of health carries over into adulthood, and it’s a very significant

1:09:13 Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
predictor. Yes, if you are young, physically active, building musculature, priming the body for muscle health, then your likelihood of having cardiometabolic disease is less. There’s a whole host of other problems that are lower. If you start early and think about it, we always talk about kids as if, I don’t know it’s a weird way of framing it, as if there’s something different. But we’re not raising children. We’re raising adults, we’re raising humans to contribute to society. Yeah, and

1:09:45 Dr. Joel Gator Warsh
you’re setting their you know, you’re setting what they’re doing, you’re setting their habits. And for a kid that’s creating healthy habits, they’re much more likely that later. I mean, you don’t even need data for that. So obviously, if you’re exercising, you’re much more like. Do it when you’re older. If your priority is cooking food and getting healthy food, you’re much more likely to do it because you’re even aware of it. Most people aren’t even aware of these things today. I mean, are getting more aware of it, but clearly we’re not aware of it because we have this obesity epidemic, and it’s not changing so well, hopefully it will be changing. Hopefully it’s changing. The conversation is changing right now. So I think that’s the first step

1:10:19 Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
now devices you have, again, you’ve been in clinical practice for 10 years, you’ve seen an increase in device use. Oh, yeah. What are some of the biggest relationships? For example, increased screen time, mental health problems, increased screen time, decreased attention and learning. Have you seen relationships between device use and health outcomes or learning outcomes?

1:10:41 Dr. Joel Gator Warsh
Yeah, I mean, I think that the research is very clear at this point that it affects all those health I mean, everything, right? You have the physical, and then you have the mental, but we’re really at the point now where it’s so clear, especially with the mental that a lot of school systems are taking phones out because the data is drastic, like you’re seeing 50, 75% drops in depression, rates and anxiety and trips to the principal’s office. So there’s a massive mental health component, but of course, also a physical component, obesity, diabetes, everything, because you’re just you’re sedentary, it’s a big part of life. So yeah,

1:11:14 Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
when you counsel your you obviously counsel patients, and they always come in with a parent, right? Because they’re they have to, they’re young, yeah, what are some evidence based recommendations that you give them for nutrition or environment or screen time? As someone who is listening to this with the goal of, how do we keep our kids safe and healthy,

1:11:37 Dr. Joel Gator Warsh
for food and usually with the younger kids. I’ll talk about the most important things for food would be for parents if they’re not doing it. I mean, it’s hard for my office, because I already have health conscious people, to some degree, coming in. They’re self selecting, but either way, still talk about it, because it’s important. So reading labels is the number one thing. Like, we have to be aware that we have to read every single label all the time from now on, it just has to be part of your every day where you’re going in the store and you’re buying with a label. Ideally, you’re buying things that don’t really have labels. But if you’re buying anything, you need to look at the ingredients and just start to become aware. You don’t need a PhD in chemistry to know that some long words probably

1:12:12 Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
not good for you. Is there one chemical or preservative that you have concerns about? I mean, there

1:12:17 Dr. Joel Gator Warsh
are many, but anything that that we any longer? I mean, sugar, it’s a huge problem. Today. We eat way more sugar than we ever should.

1:12:22 Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
I mean, I shouldn’t have given my kids cake this morning.

1:12:25 Dr. Joel Gator Warsh
If we do it, they did not eat cake. I’m

1:12:27 Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
not against any

1:12:28 Dr. Joel Gator Warsh
sugar. I mean, obviously that so sugar, in and of itself, is not bad for you. I mean, we need it for our brain. It’s just the amount of sugar and the type of sugar that we’re eating. I’m not concerned about their eating fruit, concerned about all the added processed sugars that we’re eating in mass that’s way more than we ever need, way more than anybody should be eating in a lifetime they’re eating in a year now. I mean,

1:12:46 Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
there isn’t one thing that you’re saying, Okay, well, this is in the label. Dots out. I mean, I don’t have one. Yeah, I don’t

1:12:52 Dr. Joel Gator Warsh
know that I ever get that specific with people, because I think it’s more about becoming a savvy, savvy customer and just being aware that what everything you buy from food or from products, you should read the label. Try to buy things with as few ingredients as possible, and try to make as much as you can. I mean to me, that that’s the goal. Is not like an ingredient versus another ingredient, but it’s making the actual food, the ingredients, like buying actual things and preparing it yourself, that’s going to get you a long way. And that, to me, is a big part of of that we

1:13:19 Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
were filming yesterday, and in order to film, we really try to we, well, we don’t really try. We always look at the data prior to making statements. And in 2023, over 55% of the food budget was spent on food outside of the home. It was either food at restaurants or delivery.

1:13:38 Dr. Joel Gator Warsh
Yeah, I saw that too crazy. It’s insane. And I mean, every number you look at when it comes to food is is just insane. I mean, just the 70% Ultra processed foods, or whatever number is around there. Now that’s insane, like it should be I mean, it should be zero, but it’s not going to be zero. That’s not the reality of our country. But you could certainly decrease that to 25% like, most of the food that we should be eating should be real food, not Ultra processed food.

1:14:01 Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
When you counsel your patients on nutrition, is there a certain carbohydrate target? Do you have certain targets that you try to shoot for, for macronutrients, not

1:14:10 Dr. Joel Gator Warsh
usually for I mean, sometimes people will ask me that, and I just really try to shift away from being especially for the young kids like I think you need to have variety. Think you want to focus on real food. Being so specific doesn’t help most people. It just makes them more nervous. Makes them more nervous, especially when it comes to kids. I think you can do that if you want to, but I aim to move away from a lot of the starchy carbs, so white carbs, a lot of bread and pasta, and move towards fruits and veggies and proteins and healthy fats. And I think if you do that, then you’re most of the way there. And I think for most kids, we’ll do just fine. But the rainbow supplements, I am okay with supplements, but I always want you to get through food if possible. So that’s what I always tell people. I mean, I’m okay. We have them in office. If you want to do multivitamin, you want to do vitamin D or omegas. I think that’s all reasonable, because we’re just so deficient in our food these days are and most people are not getting outside enough, but ideally. We should be getting it all from food, and you shouldn’t need a supplement if you want to do a few of them. I think that’s okay. But again, it’s with kids. It’s hard, because you want a kid to be on like 60 supplements and taking a whole bunch of things. Most kids won’t do that, and they taste terrible anyways. So if your kid’s sick all the time and has issues, maybe then I would focus my time on trying to buy more fresh produce than I would on giving them a bunch of supplements. I think supplements only get you so far. It’s, it’s a fine if you want to add to it, but ultimately, the food is what matters

1:15:27 Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
to me. What about so in terms of if you were to strategize and prioritize? It sounds to me that it’s really the fresh fruits and vegetables that kids are missing. If I’m if I’m hearing you and understanding you versus, say, protein and fat, they seem to be getting enough of Am I understanding you correctly?

1:15:47 Dr. Joel Gator Warsh
I think we get more than enough protein. You never really see anybody with protein deficiency. The fats you can have better versus not as good. But ultimately, it’s this fresh food, but I think it’s even more just not eating the ultra processed, pre packaged foods. It’s eating actual food? Like, there’s a big difference between a pre packaged chicken nugget and when you make it yourself. So I think it’s not that, that they’re not getting protein. It’s, it’s, are we getting good healthy like, where are those chickens from, right? I think that that’s a big difference. Like, how did the chicken live? What was it? What was it injected with? What did it eat? Like, I think that all adds up if you get a better protein versus not if you can. And again, these are things that not everybody can always afford or don’t always have access to, but to me, these are the most important things. And if we are focusing on, how do we get more real fresh food, that is where you’re going to get your better nutrients. A lot of our food gets shipped from all over the world. It’s pretty crappy. Even good stuff is pretty crappy. It’s like it was, you know, picked early, sprayed in a bunch of stuff, shipped across the world, sits in the store for a couple days, sprayed again, multiple times, then you eat it. And that’s the best case scenario that’s still like the real bananas that we get. It’s like it’s not even the processed food. So it’s we need as much from our local farmers as we can get. The food is totally different. I mean, I’m sure you know, anywhere you go, if you eat food that’s freshly picked, it tastes totally different. It’s a completely different food. Half the time you’re like, oh, that’s what it’s supposed to taste like. You don’t realize that until you start buying mostly from farms where you know where the food’s coming from, and it tastes different.

1:17:14 Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Dr, Joel, Warsh, thank you so much for coming on. Really, it has been eye opening. You feel very passionate about this, and I know that this comes from seeing patients for over 10 years and training and having two little kids. You’re very brave, and it’s important to be able to speak your truth. And I’m just I’m grateful for you coming on. I love your book between a shot in a hard place, I strongly recommend that people go ahead and learn from themselves and read it. Thank you. Thank you

1:17:45 Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
so much. Thank you for having me.

1:17:46
You.